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[Music]

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do

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[Music]

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happy wednesday

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we have a fantastic show for you today

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um

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tom wait song spaghetti no that's my

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song man i wrote that

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[Music]

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i love tom waits though tom white is

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awesome

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for sure

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um i could sing it like him after like a

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pack of cigarettes and a couple shots of

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whiskey but i don't really drink anymore

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so

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[Music]

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but thanks everybody for uh joining us

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um

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we have uh miss lizzie kane today and my

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wednesday friend j christopher king

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uh you guys know him he is my wednesday

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friend how are you

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[Laughter]

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the nickname it continues

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yeah why not take it why not yeah it's

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my wednesday friend i'm excited about

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the show today this is great yeah i'm

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very much looking forward to it

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um

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you know

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it's like i've said this before but

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uh

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that i do this for i get to meet

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inspiring people

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uh that inspire me you know as an

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experiencer

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you know

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you can be a little confused out there

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searching for the for the right things

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and the the right people and the right

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information and the right vibes and all

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that and

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um so

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you know when you get to uh

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you know have an interview like this and

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talk to somebody like her and yourself

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of course always

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it's just uh really fantastic and it

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makes you feel lucky and

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you know

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um kind of things just feel aligned for

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a day and it's nice to feel that way

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sometimes so

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completely agreed

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yeah and uh and uh yeah i missed you

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it's been it's been two weeks it's been

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two whole weeks

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uh it's nice to see your

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your cool shirt your glasses i'm not

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going to do like a whole sartorial thing

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but uh yeah did you want to see the pad

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somewhere

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um i'm good on the pants for now but

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maybe after the show just in case like

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they're actually shorts but you know i

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could i could see them but there's their

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sweatpants so

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you have a wonderful introduction for

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our guest today don't you that's right

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that's right i do um

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leslie kane

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bestselling author of surviving death

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and also ufos generals pilots and

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government officials go on the record

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surviving death was adapted by netflix

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and became one of their most viewed

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shows at the time of its release last

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year

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in an

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independent investigative journalist

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leslie's been published widely in dozens

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of newspapers and magazines here and

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abroad such as the boston globe the

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nation the globe and mail and the

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international herald tribune

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she'll also always be known for her

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bombshell front page article from

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december 2017 in the new york times

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written with ralph blumenthal and helene

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cooper it revealed the pentagon's a-tip

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program and published several cockpit

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videos which are now arguably the most

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famous and referenced contemporary

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evidence of unidentified flying objects

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that article led to other pieces written

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with ralph that have continued to be

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instrumental in pushing government and

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military

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disclosure

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a word she doesn't love using a

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disclosure forward and have radically

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reshaped the public discourse about ufos

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and the possibilities of other advanced

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species leslie

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we are so very happy to have you here on

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the show today well thank you jay and

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thank you sean i'm really happy to be

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with you guys today

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um yeah i'm i'm super appreciative i

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know you probably have a ton of stuff he

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could be doing and you have a busy

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schedule so for donating this time to us

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i'm very grateful uh to you for doing

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that so thank you

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um i'm happy to do it yeah thanks for

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doing your show it's important

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well i appreciate that you know when

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ralph said that to me and

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senator reed said that to me and it

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really you know makes a difference

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hearing that so thank you

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um

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let me just get it started off with

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uh you know i guess i kind of start with

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some cliche questions sometimes but

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um you've been doing this for a good

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amount of time and

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you know but definitely longer than i

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have so when i meet someone like you

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it's important for me to ask

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you know what's uh when did you first

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think of ufos you know were you a kid

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and decided you wanted to write about

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ufos when you grew up or like

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how did it

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you convicted in your work because

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you're obviously you're obviously

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convicted in it so how did that

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transpire

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i mean it i had it all started in 1999

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when i got this report in the mail

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called the camacho report

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right written by this group of french

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former french officials oh my god i

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already need the water and we just

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started

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that's okay

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yeah that's a fantastic

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i just i remember i get a scratchy

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throat but um

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some of you you know your your viewers

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may be familiar with it but

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it was this 90-page study out of france

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written by it it had a couple of

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generals in the group and an admiral and

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the former head of the equivalent of

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nasa and france

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and the chief of police and a bunch of

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scientists and they did this three-year

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study on official ufo cases

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and they came to the conclusion that the

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extraterrestrial hypothesis and they

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used this language was the most valid

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logical and rational explanation for the

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cases they studied for which they were

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able to eliminate any conventional

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explanations and that's really important

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you have to have enough data to know

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that well it couldn't be this that or

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this or that if you don't have enough

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data you can't do that so these were

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really really strong cases that they had

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so anyway that's i mean i had read a

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couple of books on ufos prior to that

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just out of sort of curiosity the way

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anybody would pick up a book well i know

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one of them was communion i mean that

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one was such a massive bestseller

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i remember staying up all night

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terrified reading that book

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uh when it was probably in the late 80s

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or something like that so it was well

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before this happened you know i just

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found it really interesting but it's not

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like i was particularly focused on it in

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any way at all you know right um and i

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never ever imagined i would ever become

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unprofessionally involved with the topic

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i didn't even think about it so

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it was when this thing landed on my desk

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in 1999

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just out of nowhere i didn't it's just

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this friend this colleague just mailed

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it to me and said

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you've got the only english translation

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of this do you want to do something with

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it at that point i was doing a lot of

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freelance reporting and i was working at

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a public radio station doing a daily

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news show so i had access

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to various media through which i had

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published freelance articles already

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and so i think this guy knew i was an

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open-minded person and knew i had access

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to outlets and thought well maybe i

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would do something with it and that's

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how it all started for me i mean i

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recognized when i got that report that

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this was a huge i thought it was huge

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i was you know i thought my god look

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what these people are saying

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right

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but of course and i did a long piece on

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the boston globe it came out in may 2000

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and it was rigorous and detailed and of

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course highly edited but

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i was still surprised that there wasn't

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more response from the official world

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there was tons of response from the

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people but not so much and i was naive

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at the time i hadn't been involved long

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enough to understand about the taboo and

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the ridicule and all the things that

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come along with this

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right so that's how anyway that's how it

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got started

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you know not to go right to this i guess

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but it reminds me of uh mr john mack and

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and how you know if anything is going to

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change

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you know as far as disclosure or

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whatever it's it's going to need a

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change of a world view more than a

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fantastic picture or or video or what

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have you you know or they go together

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kind of an example or together yeah

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because the pictures can shape the world

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view and then the worldview can shape

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what comes next and it's kind of like a

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back and forth the way i see it and um

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yeah i think he's right and i think our

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world view has already started to shift

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in the last few years but i was i've

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been on this a long time so i've been

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able to live through this dramatic

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change

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you know and seeing how that

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how different it is now from what it was

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all the other years that i was reporting

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on this

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yeah i mean i always hear people have

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been sorry uh j

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you go

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i hear from like everyone that i talked

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to

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who has been you know researching this

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stuff for for a long time

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um and the one commenting theme is i i

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never thought i'd see the day you know

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exactly i never thought i'd see it

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exactly i mean i

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i didn't think i'd see it happen this

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fast either

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i don't know no

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it's really astonishing it's really

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incredible

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well and and it wouldn't necessarily be

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be happening at all quite like this if

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it wasn't for your work and and your

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work with ralph and etc um

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but

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um along the lines of uh john mack as

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you were talking some people may not

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still know that you were a close

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companion of bud hopkins during the last

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years of his life and you were even a

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primary caregiver for bud up until he

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passed

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in fact in a way um as i understand it

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in a way it was through bud's work

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and the work of his colleague john max

283
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that you and ralph initially met at

284
00:11:07,030 --> 00:11:04,800
least according to what i've heard from

285
00:11:09,590 --> 00:11:07,040
ralph um so

286
00:11:12,069 --> 00:11:09,600
uh uh first i guess could you take us

287
00:11:14,870 --> 00:11:12,079
back to what it was like meeting bud if

288
00:11:17,430 --> 00:11:14,880
it's okay to talk about that yeah i mean

289
00:11:18,389 --> 00:11:17,440
yeah that's a while ago i mean i met bud

290
00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:18,399
at a

291
00:11:21,350 --> 00:11:19,600
i think the first time i met him was at

292
00:11:22,790 --> 00:11:21,360
a ufo conference

293
00:11:25,110 --> 00:11:22,800
it might have been in

294
00:11:27,750 --> 00:11:25,120
maybe 2002 or something like that maybe

295
00:11:29,430 --> 00:11:27,760
2003

296
00:11:31,750 --> 00:11:29,440
and um

297
00:11:33,670 --> 00:11:31,760
i i was very interested in the case he

298
00:11:36,310 --> 00:11:33,680
covered and witnessed

299
00:11:38,470 --> 00:11:36,320
the linda cortila case because i i

300
00:11:40,150 --> 00:11:38,480
thought of all the abduction cases i had

301
00:11:41,670 --> 00:11:40,160
ever read about this one seemed to have

302
00:11:43,829 --> 00:11:41,680
the most

303
00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:43,839
evidence you know evidence is very hard

304
00:11:48,069 --> 00:11:46,320
to come by in those kinds of cases

305
00:11:50,310 --> 00:11:48,079
but i was just very intrigued by that

306
00:11:52,389 --> 00:11:50,320
case so that's how i got to know him i i

307
00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:52,399
um i was living in california at the

308
00:11:56,310 --> 00:11:53,760
time but i used to come back to new york

309
00:11:57,990 --> 00:11:56,320
because this is where i was from and i

310
00:12:00,150 --> 00:11:58,000
remember going to his brownstone his

311
00:12:01,509 --> 00:12:00,160
house on 16th street and we just talked

312
00:12:03,190 --> 00:12:01,519
about that case

313
00:12:04,710 --> 00:12:03,200
and i had you know i had done all my

314
00:12:06,230 --> 00:12:04,720
homework and i'd underlined everything

315
00:12:08,230 --> 00:12:06,240
in the book and i was just like so

316
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:08,240
thrilled to be talking to actual the guy

317
00:12:12,389 --> 00:12:10,480
who had actually investigated this and i

318
00:12:15,190 --> 00:12:12,399
thought maybe it was something i could

319
00:12:16,150 --> 00:12:15,200
report on maybe there was enough there

320
00:12:18,069 --> 00:12:16,160
um

321
00:12:19,590 --> 00:12:18,079
but there wasn't quite enough

322
00:12:21,990 --> 00:12:19,600
unfortunately

323
00:12:23,670 --> 00:12:22,000
but um that's how i got to know him and

324
00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:23,680
i just became really interested in his

325
00:12:28,470 --> 00:12:25,440
work and we became really good friends

326
00:12:30,069 --> 00:12:28,480
and he was really supportive of my work

327
00:12:32,629 --> 00:12:30,079
even though we were on very different

328
00:12:34,629 --> 00:12:32,639
paths and we did very different kinds of

329
00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:34,639
work and you know i had to be i could

330
00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:35,760
never

331
00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:37,040
publicly

332
00:12:40,230 --> 00:12:38,720
report on abductions or anything like

333
00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:40,240
that even though i was very interested

334
00:12:42,949 --> 00:12:41,440
in it

335
00:12:44,550 --> 00:12:42,959
but he respected that and understood

336
00:12:47,269 --> 00:12:44,560
that and i did get to know john mack

337
00:12:49,269 --> 00:12:47,279
during that time as well um

338
00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:49,279
so yeah and then we became very good

339
00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:50,560
friends and traveled and went to

340
00:12:54,069 --> 00:12:52,399
conferences together and stuff and i

341
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:54,079
learned a lot about art from him too

342
00:13:00,150 --> 00:12:56,160
which was really great

343
00:13:02,310 --> 00:13:00,160
and then he died in 2011 um

344
00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:02,320
and i was with him at the moment he died

345
00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:04,320
and he was in hospice and

346
00:13:09,190 --> 00:13:07,200
you know it was a journey for him

347
00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:09,200
to the end of his life but i i was glad

348
00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:11,120
i could be there to support him

349
00:13:17,269 --> 00:13:13,360
and he was you know he just did

350
00:13:19,509 --> 00:13:17,279
he he was helpful to so many abductees

351
00:13:21,110 --> 00:13:19,519
not i mean the regressions he did were

352
00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:21,120
important but i think even more

353
00:13:25,829 --> 00:13:23,680
important was just the validation that

354
00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:25,839
he gave people and the support and

355
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,160
emotional support that he gave people he

356
00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:30,720
was so warm and

357
00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:33,200
you know believed in them and made them

358
00:13:37,829 --> 00:13:35,760
feel like they weren't weird

359
00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:37,839
and he had support groups and he just

360
00:13:42,150 --> 00:13:40,320
had this heart open-heartedness towards

361
00:13:44,150 --> 00:13:42,160
these some people some of them are very

362
00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:44,160
traumatized and i think he he had a

363
00:13:48,629 --> 00:13:46,480
therapeutic effect on people

364
00:13:50,310 --> 00:13:48,639
you know i think that was just as

365
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:50,320
important as any kind of investigative

366
00:13:53,910 --> 00:13:52,160
work that he did

367
00:13:56,230 --> 00:13:53,920
that's amazing you know one of the

368
00:13:57,829 --> 00:13:56,240
things that's wild about that is that at

369
00:13:59,829 --> 00:13:57,839
the time that you were just talking

370
00:14:01,670 --> 00:13:59,839
about the brownstone over on 16th street

371
00:14:02,710 --> 00:14:01,680
and at the time i was in art school at

372
00:14:04,470 --> 00:14:02,720
sva

373
00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:04,480
on 17th street at their sculpture

374
00:14:08,389 --> 00:14:06,639
building so i was only a few blocks away

375
00:14:10,550 --> 00:14:08,399
from you uh

376
00:14:13,189 --> 00:14:10,560
regularly i basically lived there so

377
00:14:14,710 --> 00:14:13,199
that's that's that's yeah he was on 16th

378
00:14:17,590 --> 00:14:14,720
between 8th

379
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:17,600
8th and 9th no 7th and 8th

380
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:19,680
yeah and i was at 17th and 6th that's

381
00:14:25,110 --> 00:14:22,880
amazing oh that is amazing um but along

382
00:14:26,870 --> 00:14:25,120
those lines um

383
00:14:28,629 --> 00:14:26,880
you said the witness case would you say

384
00:14:30,949 --> 00:14:28,639
that that was that was the thing about

385
00:14:33,910 --> 00:14:30,959
budd's work that was kind of the most

386
00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:33,920
eye-opening for you with regard to

387
00:14:38,629 --> 00:14:36,480
his work with abductees and what he was

388
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:38,639
really working with at the time

389
00:14:42,150 --> 00:14:40,560
well that case was certainly the first

390
00:14:43,829 --> 00:14:42,160
thing that drew me in

391
00:14:45,590 --> 00:14:43,839
i mean

392
00:14:46,870 --> 00:14:45,600
his book intruders was also really

393
00:14:48,629 --> 00:14:46,880
compelling

394
00:14:49,829 --> 00:14:48,639
about the kathy

395
00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:49,839
get her last her suit she had a

396
00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:51,600
pseudonym they all pseudonyms but i got

397
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:53,839
to know her i got to know linda i spent

398
00:14:57,670 --> 00:14:56,000
a lot of time with linda

399
00:14:59,670 --> 00:14:57,680
you know just trying to learn as much as

400
00:15:02,069 --> 00:14:59,680
i could and looking at all the files bud

401
00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:02,079
had and the drawings and the audio tapes

402
00:15:05,990 --> 00:15:04,560
and all the stuff around that case

403
00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:06,000
so to me it was one of the more

404
00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:08,959
interesting cases for sure but

405
00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:10,560
um there were lots of interesting

406
00:15:14,470 --> 00:15:12,320
reports and lots of interesting cases

407
00:15:16,230 --> 00:15:14,480
and i was able to sit in on regressions

408
00:15:17,269 --> 00:15:16,240
that he did with people

409
00:15:19,590 --> 00:15:17,279
um

410
00:15:20,949 --> 00:15:19,600
and so i just learned a lot about that

411
00:15:22,870 --> 00:15:20,959
whole world

412
00:15:24,870 --> 00:15:22,880
even though it was something i could

413
00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:24,880
never bring into my professional life it

414
00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:27,680
was really fascinating to me and still

415
00:15:32,389 --> 00:15:28,720
is

416
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:32,399
fascinating you know

417
00:15:38,230 --> 00:15:35,279
is it hard for you to dedicate

418
00:15:40,470 --> 00:15:38,240
you know so much of yourself to this but

419
00:15:42,310 --> 00:15:40,480
not be able to

420
00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:42,320
really push stories like that to the

421
00:15:45,749 --> 00:15:44,320
forefront as they're you know obviously

422
00:15:47,749 --> 00:15:45,759
so uh

423
00:15:49,269 --> 00:15:47,759
impactful

424
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:49,279
yeah i mean it's a great question i

425
00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:50,880
wouldn't say it's hard for me i would

426
00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:53,680
say i would like to be able to integrate

427
00:15:58,150 --> 00:15:56,880
it somehow into the mainstream dialogue

428
00:16:00,150 --> 00:15:58,160
and

429
00:16:01,749 --> 00:16:00,160
of course ralph has a head start on me

430
00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:01,759
with that i mean ralph has not only done

431
00:16:05,749 --> 00:16:03,920
the book on john mack but he's written

432
00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:05,759
an article

433
00:16:09,030 --> 00:16:08,160
for the debrief about some abductees and

434
00:16:10,949 --> 00:16:09,040
he's

435
00:16:11,990 --> 00:16:10,959
he talks about it a lot because he sort

436
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:12,000
of has

437
00:16:15,110 --> 00:16:13,199
the book to

438
00:16:17,350 --> 00:16:15,120
stand on you know

439
00:16:19,509 --> 00:16:17,360
the biography of this harvard

440
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:19,519
psychiatrist so it kind of gives it this

441
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:21,279
aura that's really safe for him to talk

442
00:16:23,269 --> 00:16:22,399
about it

443
00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:23,279
um

444
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:25,440
so you know what really what i really

445
00:16:30,069 --> 00:16:28,000
think needs to happen is

446
00:16:32,310 --> 00:16:30,079
the more paranormal aspects of this

447
00:16:33,829 --> 00:16:32,320
phenomenon which include personal

448
00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:33,839
experiences that people have had it

449
00:16:37,749 --> 00:16:36,160
includes what they call physical effects

450
00:16:39,430 --> 00:16:37,759
on people and

451
00:16:40,949 --> 00:16:39,440
changes in their consciousness and all

452
00:16:43,189 --> 00:16:40,959
the kind of things that happen all of

453
00:16:45,509 --> 00:16:43,199
that needs to become part of

454
00:16:47,590 --> 00:16:45,519
what is known about this phenomenon

455
00:16:49,269 --> 00:16:47,600
because so far it's only been presented

456
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:49,279
in a sort of a

457
00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:52,000
physical object in the sky that causes

458
00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:54,480
bleeps on the radar and you know can be

459
00:16:57,990 --> 00:16:56,240
picked up on video film but it's some

460
00:17:00,949 --> 00:16:58,000
kind of mechanical craft that has all

461
00:17:03,350 --> 00:17:00,959
this technology but there are other as

462
00:17:06,230 --> 00:17:03,360
you know well know there are many other

463
00:17:07,029 --> 00:17:06,240
aspects to this phenomenon that

464
00:17:10,630 --> 00:17:07,039
are

465
00:17:12,949 --> 00:17:10,640
it's like

466
00:17:14,870 --> 00:17:12,959
as a reporter i have to go one step at a

467
00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:14,880
time if i tried to bring anything like

468
00:17:19,029 --> 00:17:17,520
that into it before this sure i don't

469
00:17:20,710 --> 00:17:19,039
think i would have been able to write

470
00:17:23,110 --> 00:17:20,720
for the new york times

471
00:17:25,110 --> 00:17:23,120
and you know there's a progression but i

472
00:17:28,309 --> 00:17:25,120
think we're right on the edge of being

473
00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:28,319
able to do more of that because um

474
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:29,919
one reason is because in this new

475
00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:32,400
legislation that just passed right

476
00:17:35,029 --> 00:17:33,280
um

477
00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:35,039
as you're both i'm sure aware you know

478
00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:36,160
there's there's

479
00:17:40,470 --> 00:17:38,080
the one of the things she wants peop to

480
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:40,480
get reports on from this office that's

481
00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:42,240
going to be set up is

482
00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:44,480
human effects the in the medical and

483
00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:47,039
physical effects on people

484
00:17:51,350 --> 00:17:49,280
and that includes

485
00:17:53,350 --> 00:17:51,360
experiencers

486
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:53,360
i mean as far as i see it it may not

487
00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:56,559
initially the focus may initially be on

488
00:18:01,350 --> 00:17:57,440
you know

489
00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:01,360
burns or whatever or abil paranormal

490
00:18:05,510 --> 00:18:03,280
abilities that maybe people acquire

491
00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:05,520
after an encounter

492
00:18:09,830 --> 00:18:06,640
i don't know i don't know where it's

493
00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:09,840
going to go but my goal is really to try

494
00:18:14,470 --> 00:18:12,640
to incorporate that in and i feel like

495
00:18:16,390 --> 00:18:14,480
now there's a possibility that i could

496
00:18:18,630 --> 00:18:16,400
do that because of the door's been

497
00:18:19,990 --> 00:18:18,640
opened by that legislation

498
00:18:22,070 --> 00:18:20,000
you know that's

499
00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:22,080
and there's a lot of people that

500
00:18:25,590 --> 00:18:23,760
we and i've had discussions with many

501
00:18:27,669 --> 00:18:25,600
colleagues about this and

502
00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:27,679
it really does seem to be sort of the

503
00:18:30,789 --> 00:18:29,200
one of the next steps that needs to

504
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:30,799
happen

505
00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:33,280
so it's not out of any lack of respect

506
00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:35,360
for the experiencers that i have not

507
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:37,200
done this it's just a matter of like how

508
00:18:39,830 --> 00:18:38,799
i'm going to do my job to have the most

509
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:39,840
impact

510
00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:41,440
and when are people ready for certain

511
00:18:45,750 --> 00:18:43,679
things and by people i'm talking more

512
00:18:47,909 --> 00:18:45,760
about the status quo you know

513
00:18:50,230 --> 00:18:47,919
the political world the scientific world

514
00:18:51,909 --> 00:18:50,240
the people that really can affect change

515
00:18:53,190 --> 00:18:51,919
because they can make policies like we

516
00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:53,200
just saw happen

517
00:18:56,870 --> 00:18:54,960
with this legislation

518
00:18:58,870 --> 00:18:56,880
so um i think it's going to become more

519
00:19:00,870 --> 00:18:58,880
a part of the dialogue and i think that

520
00:19:02,230 --> 00:19:00,880
book uh the new book on the skin worker

521
00:19:03,909 --> 00:19:02,240
ranch

522
00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:03,919
which i'm sure you guys have read in

523
00:19:07,750 --> 00:19:05,520
fact i have a copy okay you're doing the

524
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:07,760
same thing i am grabbing for it that is

525
00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:09,760
a milestone book in my opinion because

526
00:19:13,350 --> 00:19:12,000
it it brings that that element of this

527
00:19:14,710 --> 00:19:13,360
to the fore

528
00:19:16,549 --> 00:19:14,720
and it shows that the government

529
00:19:18,549 --> 00:19:16,559
actually studied it the defense

530
00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:18,559
intelligence agency spent a couple years

531
00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:21,200
and funded a study into this the weirder

532
00:19:25,909 --> 00:19:23,440
aspects of this right so i think that

533
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:25,919
also has opened a door um and i i

534
00:19:29,029 --> 00:19:27,200
comment you know i think everyone should

535
00:19:30,789 --> 00:19:29,039
read that book it's really a great book

536
00:19:32,230 --> 00:19:30,799
so that's where i stand on that's pretty

537
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:32,240
much how i see it

538
00:19:36,390 --> 00:19:34,480
if that answers your question yeah no it

539
00:19:37,830 --> 00:19:36,400
did and i mean it it must feel like a

540
00:19:39,750 --> 00:19:37,840
lot of weight is on your shoulders with

541
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:39,760
that sometimes because as an experiencer

542
00:19:43,350 --> 00:19:41,360
i mean i have to show but i have a

543
00:19:47,669 --> 00:19:43,360
limited voice my reach can only go so

544
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:47,679
far so you know there's a sense of where

545
00:19:51,510 --> 00:19:49,280
you know we kind of

546
00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:51,520
are relying a little bit on you and you

547
00:19:55,990 --> 00:19:53,360
know just know that you know i'm in your

548
00:19:57,510 --> 00:19:56,000
corner you know and and rooting the best

549
00:19:58,470 --> 00:19:57,520
for you and all positive thoughts

550
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:58,480
because

551
00:20:01,350 --> 00:19:59,600
um

552
00:20:03,590 --> 00:20:01,360
we need it for sure you know there's a

553
00:20:05,350 --> 00:20:03,600
lot of people in wonder so

554
00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:05,360
and i think the kind of these kinds of

555
00:20:09,750 --> 00:20:07,200
podcasts are really an important part of

556
00:20:11,830 --> 00:20:09,760
it everybody contributes

557
00:20:14,149 --> 00:20:11,840
you know everybody has a role to play so

558
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:14,159
um it's not just any one person or two

559
00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:15,520
people

560
00:20:19,430 --> 00:20:17,600
and it really isn't it's nope it's just

561
00:20:23,909 --> 00:20:19,440
you

562
00:20:25,990 --> 00:20:23,919
it is lou elizondo and chris mellon

563
00:20:27,270 --> 00:20:26,000
those are the guys totally they're the

564
00:20:28,950 --> 00:20:27,280
ones that are really making all this

565
00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:28,960
happen

566
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:32,480
oh i mean it's it's it's a wide range of

567
00:20:36,950 --> 00:20:34,400
people it's it's an array

568
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:36,960
but um but yeah i would call them sort

569
00:20:41,350 --> 00:20:38,880
of at the top of in terms of working

570
00:20:42,789 --> 00:20:41,360
behind the scenes and impacting members

571
00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:42,799
of congress and all of that they're

572
00:20:45,830 --> 00:20:44,559
they're just really doing most people

573
00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:45,840
don't hear about what they do but

574
00:20:48,789 --> 00:20:48,000
they're doing a tremendous amount yeah

575
00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:48,799
yeah

576
00:20:53,110 --> 00:20:50,960
um along along the lines of what you

577
00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:53,120
were just speaking about with regard to

578
00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:55,440
skinwalker at skinwalkers of the

579
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:56,640
pentagon

580
00:21:02,710 --> 00:20:59,360
and with regard to the new legislation

581
00:21:05,190 --> 00:21:02,720
um it's kind of an organic point to ask

582
00:21:07,029 --> 00:21:05,200
a a viewer question that we got via

583
00:21:10,870 --> 00:21:07,039
twitter um

584
00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:10,880
are you outside of of lickatsky and

585
00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:13,840
colum and george's book

586
00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:15,760
and that legislation itself are you

587
00:21:18,630 --> 00:21:17,039
aware of

588
00:21:21,190 --> 00:21:18,640
the government or the intelligence

589
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:21,200
community's interest in experiencers as

590
00:21:26,870 --> 00:21:23,840
sources of information in understanding

591
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:26,880
the complexity of the phenomenon

592
00:21:31,669 --> 00:21:29,200
do you mean by that do you mean am i

593
00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:31,679
aware of studies that might be going on

594
00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:33,600
or interest from government officials in

595
00:21:37,110 --> 00:21:35,440
it is that kind of thing you mean

596
00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:37,120
we'll go with that i mean it's a viewer

597
00:21:41,029 --> 00:21:39,039
question so but we'll go with that yeah

598
00:21:42,630 --> 00:21:41,039
i mean i'm really not to tell you the

599
00:21:45,110 --> 00:21:42,640
truth that doesn't i'm not aware of

600
00:21:47,270 --> 00:21:45,120
anything specific any specific cases

601
00:21:49,510 --> 00:21:47,280
that have been studied or

602
00:21:51,990 --> 00:21:49,520
people that are interested in this but i

603
00:21:53,909 --> 00:21:52,000
think i think it's happening i mean i i

604
00:21:56,149 --> 00:21:53,919
just i'm not privy to it i would like to

605
00:21:57,909 --> 00:21:56,159
become more so and i'm going to be

606
00:21:59,430 --> 00:21:57,919
trying to get more information to answer

607
00:22:01,510 --> 00:21:59,440
that very question

608
00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:01,520
but but so far

609
00:22:05,909 --> 00:22:03,440
i'm not i'm really not i don't have any

610
00:22:07,270 --> 00:22:05,919
data you know about any anything coming

611
00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:07,280
out of the government

612
00:22:10,950 --> 00:22:09,280
but it is really something i'm on the

613
00:22:12,870 --> 00:22:10,960
verge of kind of trying to jump into and

614
00:22:14,710 --> 00:22:12,880
learn more get more so maybe i'll come

615
00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:14,720
up with something the next time we talk

616
00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:16,480
maybe i'll have more more to say about

617
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:18,640
it i don't know

618
00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:20,320
i can't imagine they're not interested

619
00:22:23,830 --> 00:22:22,960
in this in this aspect of it they must

620
00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:23,840
be

621
00:22:32,710 --> 00:22:26,640
certain

622
00:22:34,789 --> 00:22:32,720
i mean jim semivan for instance who from

623
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:34,799
the cia has talked a lot about this you

624
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:36,000
know there

625
00:22:41,940 --> 00:22:39,200
he's not part of the cia now but

626
00:22:43,830 --> 00:22:41,950
this you know he's an experiencer and um

627
00:22:45,990 --> 00:22:43,840
[Music]

628
00:22:48,070 --> 00:22:46,000
yeah he's spoken to people in his agency

629
00:22:50,310 --> 00:22:48,080
so you know there has to be an interest

630
00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:50,320
in this so they just but it's even as

631
00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:52,000
you know nobody wants to talk about it

632
00:22:55,830 --> 00:22:53,520
now at least they'll talk about the

633
00:22:57,909 --> 00:22:55,840
physicality of these objects

634
00:22:59,190 --> 00:22:57,919
but talking about this other aspect of

635
00:23:01,029 --> 00:22:59,200
it is way more

636
00:23:03,270 --> 00:23:01,039
sensitive for people

637
00:23:06,070 --> 00:23:03,280
you know and you could be right even you

638
00:23:10,230 --> 00:23:06,080
know sometimes uh people give grief

639
00:23:12,070 --> 00:23:10,240
about changing it from or to uap

640
00:23:13,909 --> 00:23:12,080
although you know i do a lot of studies

641
00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:13,919
an unidentified aerial phenomenon has

642
00:23:19,029 --> 00:23:16,080
been used since the 40s since they

643
00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:19,039
started writing cases just not as uap

644
00:23:22,549 --> 00:23:20,320
but

645
00:23:24,870 --> 00:23:22,559
it almost seems like that is a better

646
00:23:27,510 --> 00:23:24,880
descriptor especially if we're talking

647
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:27,520
something that brings with it you know

648
00:23:31,909 --> 00:23:29,760
things that affect your consciousness or

649
00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:31,919
paranormal aspects

650
00:23:38,310 --> 00:23:34,960
and experiences abductees like

651
00:23:40,789 --> 00:23:38,320
how can you label it as a flying object

652
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:40,799
you know it's it's gotta be a phenomenon

653
00:23:45,110 --> 00:23:42,720
i completely agree it's a much better

654
00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:45,120
term for it i i agree with you

655
00:23:49,110 --> 00:23:46,720
completely yeah i'm so glad that we've

656
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:49,120
sort of shifted over to that

657
00:23:56,310 --> 00:23:50,640
yeah

658
00:23:58,950 --> 00:23:56,320
um uh in operation trojan horse john

659
00:24:01,510 --> 00:23:58,960
keel uh griping about

660
00:24:04,070 --> 00:24:01,520
about that about that 52 years ago

661
00:24:06,870 --> 00:24:04,080
really about how many how how much

662
00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:06,880
energy and orbs are like figured into

663
00:24:11,669 --> 00:24:09,760
early 50s reports rather than um say

664
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:11,679
like a craft a saucer or something like

665
00:24:15,190 --> 00:24:14,000
that right this is my first book my

666
00:24:16,870 --> 00:24:15,200
first year

667
00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:16,880
oh it's interesting i mean it's funny

668
00:24:20,149 --> 00:24:18,640
when you think about these situations

669
00:24:21,669 --> 00:24:20,159
where it's like the more things change

670
00:24:23,269 --> 00:24:21,679
the more they stay the same at least in

671
00:24:25,190 --> 00:24:23,279
terms of like the internal dialogue

672
00:24:27,510 --> 00:24:25,200
sometimes but it's great to know that

673
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:27,520
the public version of that is

674
00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:29,760
is shifting along those lines i see that

675
00:24:33,430 --> 00:24:31,600
you're going to be participating in an

676
00:24:36,310 --> 00:24:33,440
upcoming conference at rice university

677
00:24:38,630 --> 00:24:36,320
in march celebrating the opening of what

678
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:38,640
will be known as the archive of the

679
00:24:43,909 --> 00:24:41,440
impossible at rice's woodson research

680
00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:43,919
center which your colleague jeff kreipel

681
00:24:48,149 --> 00:24:46,320
has been instrumental with from the rice

682
00:24:50,710 --> 00:24:48,159
website i quote

683
00:24:53,110 --> 00:24:50,720
ranging from once highly classified

684
00:24:55,190 --> 00:24:53,120
government remote viewing files to

685
00:24:57,830 --> 00:24:55,200
thousands of first-hand abduction

686
00:24:59,590 --> 00:24:57,840
accounts the archives of the impossible

687
00:25:01,909 --> 00:24:59,600
collection at woodson has become one of

688
00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:01,919
the largest and most significant

689
00:25:06,789 --> 00:25:04,240
collections of research materials

690
00:25:08,710 --> 00:25:06,799
related to these marginalized or tabooed

691
00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:08,720
topics in the world

692
00:25:13,750 --> 00:25:10,640
you'll be speaking as well as jacques

693
00:25:14,950 --> 00:25:13,760
valet diana basulka and others as from

694
00:25:16,549 --> 00:25:14,960
what i hear

695
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:16,559
have you already had a tour of the

696
00:25:20,549 --> 00:25:18,799
archive or know it's there and what does

697
00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:20,559
it mean to you to have archives like

698
00:25:25,350 --> 00:25:22,720
this being taken seriously by an

699
00:25:27,669 --> 00:25:25,360
academic institution like rice do you

700
00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:27,679
foresee this being used as an example or

701
00:25:31,110 --> 00:25:29,360
a template for other academic

702
00:25:32,630 --> 00:25:31,120
institutions in the future

703
00:25:34,310 --> 00:25:32,640
yeah i mean i'm just so glad you asked

704
00:25:35,909 --> 00:25:34,320
about this um

705
00:25:38,549 --> 00:25:35,919
the archives of the impossible at rice

706
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:38,559
university is such a great great

707
00:25:42,149 --> 00:25:40,799
resource and it's only beginning so yes

708
00:25:44,710 --> 00:25:42,159
to answer your question i have been

709
00:25:47,110 --> 00:25:44,720
there at least twice

710
00:25:49,590 --> 00:25:47,120
um and i've spent time in the archives

711
00:25:50,549 --> 00:25:49,600
actually using them

712
00:25:53,430 --> 00:25:50,559
and

713
00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:53,440
so the documents for instance um so all

714
00:25:57,669 --> 00:25:55,200
of whitley strieber's

715
00:25:59,750 --> 00:25:57,679
files are going to this place to bryce

716
00:26:01,029 --> 00:25:59,760
all of jacques vale's files are going to

717
00:26:02,630 --> 00:26:01,039
rice

718
00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:02,640
and so

719
00:26:05,909 --> 00:26:04,400
those you know the letters

720
00:26:07,830 --> 00:26:05,919
after whitley's published communion you

721
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:07,840
know they got hundreds if not thousands

722
00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:11,039
of letters from readers and his wife ann

723
00:26:15,830 --> 00:26:13,440
made sure that all of them were kept

724
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:15,840
all of those original letters are at in

725
00:26:20,230 --> 00:26:18,080
the rice archives and when i was there i

726
00:26:21,510 --> 00:26:20,240
i spent some time in the with those

727
00:26:23,669 --> 00:26:21,520
letters and

728
00:26:25,990 --> 00:26:23,679
it's just incredible this big box comes

729
00:26:27,590 --> 00:26:26,000
out with these files and every and you

730
00:26:29,350 --> 00:26:27,600
they're all these they're all hand

731
00:26:31,590 --> 00:26:29,360
written most of them

732
00:26:33,750 --> 00:26:31,600
you know from the 90 late 1980s and

733
00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:33,760
people telling these incredible stories

734
00:26:38,710 --> 00:26:34,640
and

735
00:26:39,909 --> 00:26:38,720
it's just really valuable valuable stuff

736
00:26:41,430 --> 00:26:39,919
so

737
00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:41,440
yeah um

738
00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:42,240
and

739
00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:44,480
ed mays he's a very famous remote viewer

740
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:46,320
has donated all his files and richard

741
00:26:51,510 --> 00:26:49,039
haynes also who ran the the organization

742
00:26:53,430 --> 00:26:51,520
called narcap who's a former nasa

743
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:53,440
scientist who i used to work i worked

744
00:26:56,310 --> 00:26:54,960
with him for years and years before he

745
00:26:57,990 --> 00:26:56,320
retired and

746
00:26:59,909 --> 00:26:58,000
his files are there and i spent a lot of

747
00:27:01,350 --> 00:26:59,919
time looking through his files

748
00:27:03,909 --> 00:27:01,360
and they're just case files there's

749
00:27:07,029 --> 00:27:03,919
there's a tons of audio tape that

750
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:07,039
the decane's donated everything gets

751
00:27:12,310 --> 00:27:10,080
really well organized in these archives

752
00:27:13,990 --> 00:27:12,320
all the audio stuff is digitized you

753
00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:14,000
know you can look online you can see

754
00:27:17,909 --> 00:27:15,840
what files are there you can and then

755
00:27:20,389 --> 00:27:17,919
you can go and you can visit and they'll

756
00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:20,399
bring out whatever you want so yeah the

757
00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:22,640
facility is gorgeous just physically i

758
00:27:25,669 --> 00:27:24,000
mean it's just a wonderful wonderful

759
00:27:27,909 --> 00:27:25,679
thing and jeff kreipel is really

760
00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:27,919
inspired about this and so am i

761
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:30,080
and i think it's going to grow and i

762
00:27:32,470 --> 00:27:31,370
think it could become

763
00:27:34,230 --> 00:27:32,480
[Music]

764
00:27:37,430 --> 00:27:34,240
at least for the united states certainly

765
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:37,440
the central location for people to

766
00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:39,120
put their archives some i mean a lot of

767
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:40,960
people have already donated to them in

768
00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:43,200
other facilities but

769
00:27:47,350 --> 00:27:45,440
this is a really really special

770
00:27:49,029 --> 00:27:47,360
opportunity so

771
00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:49,039
i'm glad you brought that up i forget

772
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:50,640
what other questions you asked but up to

773
00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:52,480
me it's really really meaningful another

774
00:27:55,909 --> 00:27:54,240
person that whose files are there is

775
00:27:58,230 --> 00:27:55,919
this physical medium named stuart

776
00:28:00,470 --> 00:27:58,240
alexander who i wrote about in my book

777
00:28:03,669 --> 00:28:00,480
surviving death and i actually arranged

778
00:28:06,470 --> 00:28:03,679
for all even though yeah he's still uh

779
00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:06,480
a working medium he's not like you know

780
00:28:09,430 --> 00:28:08,080
people sometimes people will donate

781
00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:09,440
their files

782
00:28:12,789 --> 00:28:11,440
fairly early in their lives maybe when

783
00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:12,799
they're in their 70s or something

784
00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:15,200
because if they don't want if something

785
00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:16,720
if they if they die suddenly they don't

786
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:18,080
want them all to be left in the hand you

787
00:28:20,789 --> 00:28:19,279
know with their family to have to deal

788
00:28:22,950 --> 00:28:20,799
with them so

789
00:28:25,029 --> 00:28:22,960
and um some people also put

790
00:28:26,230 --> 00:28:25,039
a time stamp on them like jax files

791
00:28:28,149 --> 00:28:26,240
you're not nobody's allowed to look at

792
00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:28,159
them for 10 years or something like that

793
00:28:31,350 --> 00:28:29,039
so

794
00:28:33,190 --> 00:28:31,360
they honor all of that but um and i

795
00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:33,200
think this conference is coming up is

796
00:28:36,470 --> 00:28:34,640
going to be is really going to launch

797
00:28:37,269 --> 00:28:36,480
this more into the public consciousness

798
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:37,279
and

799
00:28:40,549 --> 00:28:39,440
all these these uh the talks that are

800
00:28:42,789 --> 00:28:40,559
being given

801
00:28:45,750 --> 00:28:42,799
the main talks are going to be available

802
00:28:46,870 --> 00:28:45,760
on for people to zoom in to watch them

803
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:46,880
right

804
00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:49,200
online so i hope a lot i registered

805
00:28:54,549 --> 00:28:53,510
whatever

806
00:28:56,950 --> 00:28:54,559
but um

807
00:28:58,230 --> 00:28:56,960
yeah it's just a it is a really really

808
00:28:59,830 --> 00:28:58,240
cool thing the archives of the

809
00:29:02,230 --> 00:28:59,840
impossible i'm

810
00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:02,240
very interested in supporting them

811
00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:05,360
it's super close to me too so i mean

812
00:29:08,549 --> 00:29:07,120
you can request being there in person i

813
00:29:10,070 --> 00:29:08,559
did i don't know how that works but oh

814
00:29:11,510 --> 00:29:10,080
you've been there before

815
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:11,520
no not yet

816
00:29:15,029 --> 00:29:13,440
yeah you can just um i don't know if

817
00:29:17,350 --> 00:29:15,039
there's on their website if they have a

818
00:29:19,029 --> 00:29:17,360
contact person but if you if you're

819
00:29:20,230 --> 00:29:19,039
nearby you could come to the conference

820
00:29:21,830 --> 00:29:20,240
in person

821
00:29:25,269 --> 00:29:21,840
yeah i'm gonna try to do that most

822
00:29:26,389 --> 00:29:25,279
definitely so and i need to do

823
00:29:27,510 --> 00:29:26,399
i need to start

824
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:27,520
you know taking advantage of

825
00:29:32,789 --> 00:29:29,360
opportunities where i can actually like

826
00:29:35,029 --> 00:29:32,799
be in person doing some things because

827
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:35,039
uh it's pretty much been predominantly

828
00:29:38,070 --> 00:29:36,320
uh virtual

829
00:29:40,149 --> 00:29:38,080
i know it's

830
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:40,159
tiring and i yeah so it'd be great i'll

831
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:42,320
see you there and willie streamer will

832
00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:44,320
be there also in person

833
00:29:46,789 --> 00:29:45,120
great

834
00:29:49,190 --> 00:29:46,799
um and then you could actually go into

835
00:29:51,830 --> 00:29:49,200
the archives and you know hang around

836
00:29:54,149 --> 00:29:51,840
and it would be great um

837
00:29:56,310 --> 00:29:54,159
so yeah it's just a project i'm really

838
00:29:57,430 --> 00:29:56,320
excited about

839
00:30:01,669 --> 00:29:57,440
um

840
00:30:02,950 --> 00:30:01,679
hard to

841
00:30:04,389 --> 00:30:02,960
um

842
00:30:06,710 --> 00:30:04,399
define

843
00:30:08,230 --> 00:30:06,720
or choose i mean i already know you're

844
00:30:11,029 --> 00:30:08,240
probably gonna say how do i pick this

845
00:30:12,470 --> 00:30:11,039
but um what is the most

846
00:30:14,230 --> 00:30:12,480
convincing

847
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:14,240
um

848
00:30:20,230 --> 00:30:18,000
ufo or uap case that you know of

849
00:30:21,269 --> 00:30:20,240
um like if you had to go before a jury

850
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:21,279
and they're like all right give me your

851
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:23,600
best case you got one shot oh my god

852
00:30:32,789 --> 00:30:30,070
maybe the nimitz case

853
00:30:35,990 --> 00:30:32,799
the nimitz case nice i mean just because

854
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:36,000
it's got the one video it's got

855
00:30:40,870 --> 00:30:38,240
so many it's got both dave framer and

856
00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:40,880
alex dietrich who were interacting with

857
00:30:43,909 --> 00:30:42,880
the thing or really close to it and it's

858
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:43,919
got

859
00:30:48,070 --> 00:30:45,520
other people you know all the witnesses

860
00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:48,080
that have come forward um

861
00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:50,640
but that's a hard question there are a

862
00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:52,640
lot of great cases that

863
00:30:56,789 --> 00:30:54,880
they're just older and people i think

864
00:30:58,630 --> 00:30:56,799
people put more credence in more

865
00:31:00,230 --> 00:30:58,640
contemporary cases

866
00:31:02,789 --> 00:31:00,240
yeah unfortunately you know there are so

867
00:31:05,590 --> 00:31:02,799
many great i mean

868
00:31:08,549 --> 00:31:05,600
there's the the the uh the alaska case

869
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:08,559
from 1986 with john callahan was just

870
00:31:11,590 --> 00:31:10,320
incredible there's a lot of data on that

871
00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:11,600
case too

872
00:31:15,509 --> 00:31:13,840
and there's radar and audio tapes from

873
00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:15,519
the cockpit and all that

874
00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:18,080
and three witnesses i don't know i

875
00:31:23,509 --> 00:31:20,640
consider that a fantastic case the case

876
00:31:24,950 --> 00:31:23,519
out of iran in 1976 is amazing it's got

877
00:31:26,710 --> 00:31:24,960
government documents i mean there's just

878
00:31:28,149 --> 00:31:26,720
so many

879
00:31:29,269 --> 00:31:28,159
yeah so

880
00:31:31,269 --> 00:31:29,279
i don't know

881
00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:31,279
i just posted on twitter something i

882
00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:34,320
found in the blue book archives um for

883
00:31:39,350 --> 00:31:36,880
sightings in iran this came from iran a

884
00:31:41,590 --> 00:31:39,360
whole list of sightings that they had

885
00:31:44,549 --> 00:31:41,600
and this is in the 50s there's probably

886
00:31:46,230 --> 00:31:44,559
like 15 20 of them or something it's

887
00:31:49,669 --> 00:31:46,240
pretty interesting especially when you

888
00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:49,679
start realizing that hey like um

889
00:31:54,310 --> 00:31:52,320
you know this is not a united states

890
00:31:56,549 --> 00:31:54,320
thing this is like

891
00:31:58,950 --> 00:31:56,559
we have iran in the 50s we have here in

892
00:32:01,830 --> 00:31:58,960
the 50s we have australia in the 50s we

893
00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:01,840
have france had a wave in the 50s that

894
00:32:06,789 --> 00:32:04,080
heineken knew all about like

895
00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:06,799
this is a global thing so

896
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:08,640
you know absolutely i think we tend to

897
00:32:12,230 --> 00:32:10,240
forget that sometimes

898
00:32:14,549 --> 00:32:12,240
yeah the knowledge is power the more we

899
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:14,559
could throw that out there and the more

900
00:32:19,350 --> 00:32:17,279
people like you we can get

901
00:32:22,230 --> 00:32:19,360
you know this is it's going to move go

902
00:32:24,870 --> 00:32:22,240
ahead js get it sure a question

903
00:32:27,509 --> 00:32:24,880
sure yeah i mean i i remember

904
00:32:28,389 --> 00:32:27,519
to tether this a little bit you know um

905
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:28,399
that

906
00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:30,480
at the beginning of missing time bud

907
00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:33,360
hopkins uh uh early work he gave this

908
00:32:38,630 --> 00:32:36,320
kind of amazing master class of of doing

909
00:32:41,990 --> 00:32:38,640
boots on the ground research for this

910
00:32:44,149 --> 00:32:42,000
landing case um in new jersey and it's

911
00:32:46,870 --> 00:32:44,159
it's basically like the first 50 or 60

912
00:32:48,230 --> 00:32:46,880
pages of the book and it reminded um i

913
00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:48,240
was thinking about that the other day

914
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:50,399
and remembering that um one of the cases

915
00:32:54,310 --> 00:32:51,840
that you were most

916
00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:54,320
that you were strongly associated with

917
00:32:58,389 --> 00:32:56,720
um early on in your research was the

918
00:32:59,110 --> 00:32:58,399
kecksburg pennsylvania case is that

919
00:32:59,909 --> 00:32:59,120
right

920
00:33:01,590 --> 00:32:59,919
yeah yeah

921
00:33:03,029 --> 00:33:01,600
and um could you

922
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:03,039
could you um

923
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:04,559
walk us through a little bit about like

924
00:33:08,470 --> 00:33:06,640
what that was like for you walking into

925
00:33:11,909 --> 00:33:08,480
that case and what were the challenges

926
00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:11,919
there and you know i imagine that um you

927
00:33:14,310 --> 00:33:12,799
were with

928
00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:14,320
are you around but

929
00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:16,480
a lot of the time um did you talk about

930
00:33:19,750 --> 00:33:18,640
that case much together yeah we did

931
00:33:21,590 --> 00:33:19,760
actually because i was involved with

932
00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:21,600
that during the time i was friends with

933
00:33:25,509 --> 00:33:22,720
bud

934
00:33:27,269 --> 00:33:25,519
and um of course stan gordon from

935
00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:27,279
greensburg pennsylvania is the person

936
00:33:31,509 --> 00:33:29,039
that has been studying that thing that

937
00:33:33,509 --> 00:33:31,519
case literally since he was 16 years old

938
00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:33,519
beginning in 1965 when it actually

939
00:33:36,149 --> 00:33:34,480
happened

940
00:33:38,789 --> 00:33:36,159
and the reason i got involved was

941
00:33:39,750 --> 00:33:38,799
because the sci-fi channel

942
00:33:42,070 --> 00:33:39,760
was

943
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:42,080
issuing a like a campaign sort of public

944
00:33:45,750 --> 00:33:44,080
campaign to try to do something that

945
00:33:48,389 --> 00:33:45,760
would interest people and that would be

946
00:33:50,230 --> 00:33:48,399
sort of a contribution they could make

947
00:33:52,789 --> 00:33:50,240
and so they wanted they asked me if i

948
00:33:54,310 --> 00:33:52,799
would choose a case that we would do a

949
00:33:56,230 --> 00:33:54,320
very sophisticated freedom of

950
00:33:58,549 --> 00:33:56,240
information act effort to try to get

951
00:34:00,070 --> 00:33:58,559
information about a case that we needed

952
00:34:01,669 --> 00:34:00,080
to know more about

953
00:34:03,750 --> 00:34:01,679
and we weren't just going to

954
00:34:06,870 --> 00:34:03,760
stop when they said sorry we don't have

955
00:34:08,149 --> 00:34:06,880
anything you know a case that that

956
00:34:09,909 --> 00:34:08,159
really should have him have

957
00:34:12,230 --> 00:34:09,919
documentation that we kind of know must

958
00:34:13,909 --> 00:34:12,240
have documentation so anyway that's how

959
00:34:16,389 --> 00:34:13,919
i and i i thought the keckster case was

960
00:34:18,550 --> 00:34:16,399
was a wonderful case for that because we

961
00:34:21,270 --> 00:34:18,560
already knew so much about it because of

962
00:34:22,950 --> 00:34:21,280
stan's work and we already had some

963
00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:22,960
documents that have been released but

964
00:34:27,270 --> 00:34:25,440
not nearly enough there were tons of

965
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:27,280
witnesses we know exactly what happened

966
00:34:30,869 --> 00:34:29,440
and there was a physical object that was

967
00:34:33,030 --> 00:34:30,879
removed so

968
00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:33,040
there's physical evidence ultimately for

969
00:34:36,310 --> 00:34:34,720
this case

970
00:34:38,230 --> 00:34:36,320
so anyway

971
00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:38,240
that's how i i got involved and then i

972
00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:40,159
spent some years on this freedom of

973
00:34:43,750 --> 00:34:42,159
information act effort but i also did

974
00:34:45,750 --> 00:34:43,760
some other investigative work on the

975
00:34:47,669 --> 00:34:45,760
case and kind of added new

976
00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:47,679
new aspects to it and the sci-fi channel

977
00:34:51,829 --> 00:34:49,440
put a lot of resources into this by

978
00:34:54,069 --> 00:34:51,839
bringing in scientists to the crash site

979
00:34:57,270 --> 00:34:54,079
and studying the trees around the crash

980
00:35:00,630 --> 00:34:57,280
site and doing some really cool stuff

981
00:35:02,630 --> 00:35:00,640
and then we we ended up suing nasa it

982
00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:02,640
was a foia lawsuit against nasa and i

983
00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:03,920
was the plaintiff for that that went on

984
00:35:07,109 --> 00:35:05,760
for years and years and years

985
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:07,119
um

986
00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:10,079
though

987
00:35:13,829 --> 00:35:12,800
freaking nasa yeah but we know they were

988
00:35:16,069 --> 00:35:13,839
there

989
00:35:18,550 --> 00:35:16,079
so it's a very long and complicated

990
00:35:20,790 --> 00:35:18,560
story but i still find the case really

991
00:35:22,870 --> 00:35:20,800
fascinating it is not solved yet we

992
00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:22,880
don't know what came down we a lot of

993
00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:24,960
possibilities have been repeatedly

994
00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:27,119
eliminated over the years

995
00:35:30,950 --> 00:35:28,960
because stan's been given all kinds of

996
00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:30,960
oh it was a you know it was a missile

997
00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:33,040
coming from the space over here it was

998
00:35:37,349 --> 00:35:34,560
this or that and everything has been

999
00:35:39,430 --> 00:35:37,359
checked out it's been a sakura or a

1000
00:35:42,069 --> 00:35:39,440
russian satellite or whatever none of

1001
00:35:43,910 --> 00:35:42,079
the none of the possible explanations

1002
00:35:45,430 --> 00:35:43,920
fit so we still don't know what that

1003
00:35:46,630 --> 00:35:45,440
thing was

1004
00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:46,640
yeah

1005
00:35:52,550 --> 00:35:49,680
i mean socorro is a wonderful case too

1006
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:52,560
i just did a huge deep dive into that

1007
00:35:56,069 --> 00:35:54,320
yeah and where

1008
00:35:58,950 --> 00:35:56,079
you had people going straight over to

1009
00:36:01,030 --> 00:35:58,960
white sands trying to get um clearances

1010
00:36:03,349 --> 00:36:01,040
to talk to the base commanders there

1011
00:36:05,670 --> 00:36:03,359
about stuff and what they had and

1012
00:36:09,030 --> 00:36:05,680
nothing was

1013
00:36:10,390 --> 00:36:09,040
it they couldn't find anything that it

1014
00:36:13,030 --> 00:36:10,400
that it would be

1015
00:36:16,150 --> 00:36:13,040
um so and you're just kind of left like

1016
00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:16,160
huh you know that for sure i mean that

1017
00:36:20,550 --> 00:36:18,480
one with the since he saw

1018
00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:20,560
beings

1019
00:36:24,310 --> 00:36:22,480
you know and he saw take off and

1020
00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:24,320
everything i mean there's you know i

1021
00:36:28,069 --> 00:36:26,400
think they can't really argue that that

1022
00:36:29,109 --> 00:36:28,079
was a russian satellite or something

1023
00:36:30,870 --> 00:36:29,119
like that

1024
00:36:33,430 --> 00:36:30,880
which is what people have argued for the

1025
00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:33,440
kecksburg object yes it was yeah so

1026
00:36:35,510 --> 00:36:34,320
they're

1027
00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:35,520
anyway

1028
00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:37,599
but it's a really interesting case and

1029
00:36:40,950 --> 00:36:38,960
if people want to know more about it

1030
00:36:43,270 --> 00:36:40,960
they can go to stan gordon's website and

1031
00:36:45,270 --> 00:36:43,280
he's got tons of stuff on that case

1032
00:36:47,750 --> 00:36:45,280
that does bring me to a question i just

1033
00:36:50,390 --> 00:36:47,760
thought of um being um

1034
00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:50,400
you know a well-established author and

1035
00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:53,200
definitely uh fantastic at it

1036
00:36:55,829 --> 00:36:55,040
um

1037
00:36:57,510 --> 00:36:55,839
what

1038
00:36:59,270 --> 00:36:57,520
um

1039
00:37:03,030 --> 00:36:59,280
you know how is it working with a

1040
00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:03,040
television in in film and how do

1041
00:37:06,710 --> 00:37:04,800
is that an easy translation i would

1042
00:37:08,630 --> 00:37:06,720
imagine that's a lot more difficult

1043
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:08,640
because you're trying to compact a lot

1044
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:10,880
into like little short episodes and

1045
00:37:15,270 --> 00:37:12,960
stuff so like what's what's your take on

1046
00:37:18,390 --> 00:37:15,280
that and how do you do it

1047
00:37:20,950 --> 00:37:18,400
i mean it's really different and

1048
00:37:22,790 --> 00:37:20,960
but i'm not doing the difficult job and

1049
00:37:24,470 --> 00:37:22,800
you know and i've done i've done the i

1050
00:37:26,630 --> 00:37:24,480
did the one for netflix which was based

1051
00:37:28,630 --> 00:37:26,640
on surviving death um

1052
00:37:30,710 --> 00:37:28,640
and i'm doing another one now for cnn on

1053
00:37:32,470 --> 00:37:30,720
ufos they just announced it about a week

1054
00:37:34,150 --> 00:37:32,480
ago that that's happening and very

1055
00:37:35,910 --> 00:37:34,160
exciting i'm probably more involved with

1056
00:37:36,870 --> 00:37:35,920
the cnn one than i was with the netflix

1057
00:37:38,470 --> 00:37:36,880
one but

1058
00:37:40,870 --> 00:37:38,480
on both of them i'm a consulting

1059
00:37:42,550 --> 00:37:40,880
producer and i'm also being interviewed

1060
00:37:45,750 --> 00:37:42,560
i'm being interviewed probably more by

1061
00:37:47,589 --> 00:37:45,760
cnn than i was for surviving death but

1062
00:37:50,790 --> 00:37:47,599
so my job is basically to bring the

1063
00:37:52,870 --> 00:37:50,800
content and the you know and to the to

1064
00:37:54,470 --> 00:37:52,880
the show and help structure it and help

1065
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:54,480
decide who who would be good to

1066
00:37:57,589 --> 00:37:56,320
interview and

1067
00:37:59,910 --> 00:37:57,599
um

1068
00:38:01,750 --> 00:37:59,920
you know kind of oversee the facts of

1069
00:38:04,710 --> 00:38:01,760
the cases and so on and bring the

1070
00:38:07,589 --> 00:38:04,720
material to the producers but i don't

1071
00:38:09,270 --> 00:38:07,599
have to do the hard work of editing it

1072
00:38:11,030 --> 00:38:09,280
and like all the things you just said

1073
00:38:14,630 --> 00:38:11,040
sean that make this make documentary

1074
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:14,640
filmmaking so tedious and so difficult

1075
00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:16,560
and i know it is because i'm around i'm

1076
00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:18,640
seeing it happen and that you do these

1077
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:20,640
different drafts and you've got to edit

1078
00:38:25,030 --> 00:38:22,320
and edit and edit and change and there's

1079
00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:25,040
so much technology involved and you get

1080
00:38:29,109 --> 00:38:27,200
these great interviews with someone that

1081
00:38:30,710 --> 00:38:29,119
might go an hour and a half and you you

1082
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:30,720
have to figure out what of this

1083
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:32,480
incredible interview

1084
00:38:35,990 --> 00:38:34,560
can you use in like three minutes you

1085
00:38:37,990 --> 00:38:36,000
know

1086
00:38:39,109 --> 00:38:38,000
i mean i don't really have to do that

1087
00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:39,119
hard stuff

1088
00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:40,880
you just gotta put it at two times the

1089
00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:42,560
speed or whatever just i just have to

1090
00:38:45,829 --> 00:38:44,560
get from the interviews and and be

1091
00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:45,839
involved with the questioning of the

1092
00:38:50,230 --> 00:38:47,520
person and make sure we have everything

1093
00:38:51,829 --> 00:38:50,240
we need and you know a lot of stuff but

1094
00:38:53,589 --> 00:38:51,839
they're the the team i work with

1095
00:38:55,270 --> 00:38:53,599
breakthrough films it's the same group

1096
00:38:56,630 --> 00:38:55,280
that made this surviving death series

1097
00:38:58,230 --> 00:38:56,640
for netflix

1098
00:39:00,470 --> 00:38:58,240
they're the ones that have to do that

1099
00:39:02,390 --> 00:39:00,480
hard work and they're great at it

1100
00:39:04,390 --> 00:39:02,400
but i just sort of stand by and watch

1101
00:39:06,710 --> 00:39:04,400
and give them notes and contribute and

1102
00:39:09,270 --> 00:39:06,720
do whatever they need me to do you know

1103
00:39:10,950 --> 00:39:09,280
but it but it is really hard it takes so

1104
00:39:12,230 --> 00:39:10,960
long i mean you write an article for the

1105
00:39:14,630 --> 00:39:12,240
new york times it might take a few

1106
00:39:17,829 --> 00:39:14,640
months right right make a documentary

1107
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:17,839
series like it takes a year and a half

1108
00:39:21,109 --> 00:39:19,280
or something like that

1109
00:39:23,109 --> 00:39:21,119
it's like that with a lot of creative

1110
00:39:25,190 --> 00:39:23,119
stuff right like writing i write music

1111
00:39:27,510 --> 00:39:25,200
i've been doing that for you know 20

1112
00:39:29,829 --> 00:39:27,520
years and it's like the writing aspect

1113
00:39:31,190 --> 00:39:29,839
is the easy part but the editing and the

1114
00:39:34,390 --> 00:39:31,200
mixing the

1115
00:39:35,910 --> 00:39:34,400
all that stuff is the painstaking

1116
00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:35,920
stuff and i heard you talk about this on

1117
00:39:40,310 --> 00:39:38,000
your last show with chris leto and i

1118
00:39:43,589 --> 00:39:40,320
smiled when you said it because

1119
00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:43,599
it struck me so much as how i am with

1120
00:39:48,870 --> 00:39:46,560
music when you say you get so used to it

1121
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:48,880
you're so familiar with it and you have

1122
00:39:52,069 --> 00:39:50,240
to walk away

1123
00:39:53,910 --> 00:39:52,079
and try to come back to it with fresh

1124
00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:53,920
ears because you live with it so much

1125
00:39:58,710 --> 00:39:56,560
you don't realize what you're hearing or

1126
00:40:01,030 --> 00:39:58,720
in your case what you're writing anymore

1127
00:40:02,470 --> 00:40:01,040
you know

1128
00:40:04,870 --> 00:40:02,480
i'm sure that's true for music in

1129
00:40:06,710 --> 00:40:04,880
exactly the same way it is yeah

1130
00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:06,720
yeah absolutely and with filmmaking i

1131
00:40:09,910 --> 00:40:08,160
mean they

1132
00:40:12,069 --> 00:40:09,920
they have they're working with the

1133
00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:12,079
people at cnn so they'll get notes and

1134
00:40:17,270 --> 00:40:14,560
feedback and guidance from them in terms

1135
00:40:18,790 --> 00:40:17,280
of what cnn actually wants so

1136
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:18,800
i think that keeps it pretty fresh and

1137
00:40:22,870 --> 00:40:21,359
there's so many people in the

1138
00:40:24,470 --> 00:40:22,880
from breakthrough films who are working

1139
00:40:27,270 --> 00:40:24,480
on this i mean they have many editors

1140
00:40:29,109 --> 00:40:27,280
and many producers and archivists and

1141
00:40:30,630 --> 00:40:29,119
all kinds of people working on it so

1142
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:30,640
there's a lot of eyes on it which is

1143
00:40:34,870 --> 00:40:32,880
really good yeah yeah

1144
00:40:36,950 --> 00:40:34,880
that's great to hear that's amazing i

1145
00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:36,960
mean it's a really great series i have

1146
00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:40,000
to say do you know when it's highest

1147
00:40:43,829 --> 00:40:41,920
do you know when it's showing by chance

1148
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:43,839
um it's supposed to show this summer

1149
00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:46,000
supposed to start in july

1150
00:40:50,309 --> 00:40:48,400
cool yeah sweet try great

1151
00:40:52,550 --> 00:40:50,319
um i just i'm just gonna do a streaming

1152
00:40:53,510 --> 00:40:52,560
version of it that's all

1153
00:40:55,510 --> 00:40:53,520
yes

1154
00:40:56,390 --> 00:40:55,520
and i'm sure that there's i'm sure that

1155
00:40:58,950 --> 00:40:56,400
there's

1156
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:58,960
a since it's in post since it's an edit

1157
00:41:04,150 --> 00:41:01,440
right now there's only there's only a

1158
00:41:07,109 --> 00:41:04,160
limited amount that you that you can say

1159
00:41:08,390 --> 00:41:07,119
for sure will be in the show and i know

1160
00:41:11,430 --> 00:41:08,400
that um

1161
00:41:13,589 --> 00:41:11,440
of course since it's coming in july we

1162
00:41:15,190 --> 00:41:13,599
don't want to give you don't probably

1163
00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:15,200
want to give too many spoilers about

1164
00:41:21,030 --> 00:41:18,880
what's what's going to be going into it

1165
00:41:22,790 --> 00:41:21,040
so feel free to

1166
00:41:25,270 --> 00:41:22,800
you know but

1167
00:41:27,349 --> 00:41:25,280
do you think were there times you know

1168
00:41:29,589 --> 00:41:27,359
you were saying that your team the team

1169
00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:29,599
from surviving death largely came on to

1170
00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:31,040
this new show

1171
00:41:34,710 --> 00:41:31,920
and

1172
00:41:36,630 --> 00:41:34,720
i'm wondering a uh

1173
00:41:38,470 --> 00:41:36,640
were there were there times in shooting

1174
00:41:40,470 --> 00:41:38,480
a new program where

1175
00:41:43,109 --> 00:41:40,480
these people that you've worked with

1176
00:41:45,670 --> 00:41:43,119
in dealing with consciousness and after

1177
00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:45,680
life scenarios and all this stuff where

1178
00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:47,520
they they're hearing this information

1179
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:49,200
for the first time and you're getting

1180
00:41:53,030 --> 00:41:50,880
this like

1181
00:41:55,109 --> 00:41:53,040
kind of like jaw-dropped

1182
00:41:56,390 --> 00:41:55,119
you know

1183
00:41:58,390 --> 00:41:56,400
i think people they all have their

1184
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:58,400
moments so sometimes there's even people

1185
00:42:01,589 --> 00:41:59,760
who weren't involved with surviving

1186
00:42:03,190 --> 00:42:01,599
death that have those moments

1187
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:03,200
because um

1188
00:42:07,030 --> 00:42:04,880
yeah i mean it's really interesting when

1189
00:42:08,710 --> 00:42:07,040
the you know you get the the crew that

1190
00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:08,720
come in you know every time we shoot

1191
00:42:12,710 --> 00:42:10,960
there's probably 10 or 11 people

1192
00:42:15,190 --> 00:42:12,720
involved but just

1193
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:15,200
lighting and sound and

1194
00:42:19,990 --> 00:42:16,400
everything you know all the people you

1195
00:42:21,589 --> 00:42:20,000
need to do a really great professional

1196
00:42:23,349 --> 00:42:21,599
interview with somebody

1197
00:42:25,670 --> 00:42:23,359
and they all have their relate you know

1198
00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:25,680
they'll they get to listen right and for

1199
00:42:29,589 --> 00:42:27,839
a lot of this is news it's new stuff for

1200
00:42:31,910 --> 00:42:29,599
some of them it's not but

1201
00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:31,920
it's really fun to dialogue with them

1202
00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:34,240
and see how they respond to everything

1203
00:42:38,550 --> 00:42:36,240
um and i think yeah some of the and

1204
00:42:40,470 --> 00:42:38,560
there were some some of them were on

1205
00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:40,480
both shows not all you know the director

1206
00:42:44,950 --> 00:42:42,400
is the same person

1207
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:44,960
our two top our show runners are

1208
00:42:48,309 --> 00:42:46,880
different in this show than they were in

1209
00:42:50,470 --> 00:42:48,319
surviving death but some of the

1210
00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:50,480
producers are the same and they they're

1211
00:42:53,589 --> 00:42:52,240
really interested in how it all fits

1212
00:42:54,550 --> 00:42:53,599
together

1213
00:42:55,990 --> 00:42:54,560
and

1214
00:42:58,230 --> 00:42:56,000
they're you know some of them are really

1215
00:42:59,910 --> 00:42:58,240
really involved with the material i mean

1216
00:43:03,270 --> 00:42:59,920
one of our producers

1217
00:43:04,390 --> 00:43:03,280
seth keel knew bud hopkins very well and

1218
00:43:06,950 --> 00:43:04,400
he shot

1219
00:43:08,710 --> 00:43:06,960
he spent a lot of time just following

1220
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:08,720
bet around with a camera and shot lots

1221
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:10,800
of footage of a bud

1222
00:43:14,230 --> 00:43:12,800
so he's like goes back that far with

1223
00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:14,240
this topic

1224
00:43:19,030 --> 00:43:16,720
and he really knows a lot about it and

1225
00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:19,040
then we i did i did a show with the same

1226
00:43:22,710 --> 00:43:21,040
group in 2011

1227
00:43:24,710 --> 00:43:22,720
there was a history channel special

1228
00:43:27,430 --> 00:43:24,720
based on my book called secret access i

1229
00:43:29,030 --> 00:43:27,440
don't really like the name but

1230
00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:29,040
i didn't really like the show all that

1231
00:43:34,069 --> 00:43:32,000
well either it was okay but

1232
00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:34,079
yeah um that was the first time i really

1233
00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:36,160
worked with this this group this

1234
00:43:40,790 --> 00:43:37,920
breakthrough films people but i had

1235
00:43:43,190 --> 00:43:40,800
known them for years before that so um

1236
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:43,200
it's really like family at this point

1237
00:43:45,510 --> 00:43:44,480
you know i've known them for so long and

1238
00:43:47,829 --> 00:43:45,520
worked with them this is the third

1239
00:43:49,670 --> 00:43:47,839
project we've worked on together

1240
00:43:52,710 --> 00:43:49,680
and they do know a lot about these

1241
00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:52,720
topics by now so that is really fun

1242
00:43:57,670 --> 00:43:54,800
i would imagine your back and forth

1243
00:43:58,790 --> 00:43:57,680
creative relationship is is becoming uh

1244
00:44:00,390 --> 00:43:58,800
more

1245
00:44:02,470 --> 00:44:00,400
you know there's

1246
00:44:04,630 --> 00:44:02,480
a lot more rhythm to it as well you know

1247
00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:04,640
knowing each other and and how everybody

1248
00:44:08,630 --> 00:44:06,640
works and

1249
00:44:10,550 --> 00:44:08,640
positives and all that yeah it really

1250
00:44:12,550 --> 00:44:10,560
helps you've had the past experience

1251
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:12,560
with them and just know how things work

1252
00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:14,160
and how you know the people i'm dealing

1253
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:16,240
with yes it's really great just couldn't

1254
00:44:19,910 --> 00:44:18,160
be a better situation

1255
00:44:21,349 --> 00:44:19,920
how do you see

1256
00:44:23,030 --> 00:44:21,359
you know like

1257
00:44:24,630 --> 00:44:23,040
i know you've been a big proponent of

1258
00:44:26,790 --> 00:44:24,640
the government stepping in and doing

1259
00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:26,800
something with this uap stuff and you

1260
00:44:30,630 --> 00:44:28,640
know trying to

1261
00:44:34,470 --> 00:44:30,640
um get information out to the public

1262
00:44:36,069 --> 00:44:34,480
more or less um on what this is but um

1263
00:44:38,069 --> 00:44:36,079
most of all first getting the

1264
00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:38,079
information to the politicians in

1265
00:44:42,390 --> 00:44:40,240
congress so that they can do something

1266
00:44:43,990 --> 00:44:42,400
like they just what they just did

1267
00:44:48,230 --> 00:44:44,000
um

1268
00:44:50,630 --> 00:44:48,240
of like public hearings and stuff in

1269
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:50,640
like um rep carson

1270
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:52,960
um is talking about that

1271
00:44:57,430 --> 00:44:54,880
do you feel public hearings would be

1272
00:44:59,510 --> 00:44:57,440
positive or do you think more classified

1273
00:45:00,790 --> 00:44:59,520
hearings would be a good thing what's

1274
00:45:02,470 --> 00:45:00,800
your take on that

1275
00:45:04,069 --> 00:45:02,480
i don't really have an opinion i mean of

1276
00:45:06,390 --> 00:45:04,079
course i love public hearings because

1277
00:45:08,710 --> 00:45:06,400
i'd like to hear them you know

1278
00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:08,720
right i think it'd be so exciting i mean

1279
00:45:13,910 --> 00:45:12,000
so but you know in terms of

1280
00:45:15,750 --> 00:45:13,920
what's i mean all of it seems important

1281
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:15,760
to me all of it seems like why wouldn't

1282
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:17,440
that be a good thing right why wouldn't

1283
00:45:21,430 --> 00:45:19,440
it be the public hearings why wouldn't

1284
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:21,440
of course classified hearings i mean

1285
00:45:25,109 --> 00:45:23,760
they get the briefings all the time so

1286
00:45:26,870 --> 00:45:25,119
but i guess with hearings they'd

1287
00:45:29,190 --> 00:45:26,880
actually be bringing in

1288
00:45:31,430 --> 00:45:29,200
more people to talk to the

1289
00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:31,440
government officials so yeah i mean i'm

1290
00:45:34,470 --> 00:45:33,680
all for whatever they can pull off you

1291
00:45:36,309 --> 00:45:34,480
know

1292
00:45:38,390 --> 00:45:36,319
yeah think how incredible it would be to

1293
00:45:40,390 --> 00:45:38,400
sit down in front of your why your big

1294
00:45:41,510 --> 00:45:40,400
television set on yeah

1295
00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:41,520
totally

1296
00:45:46,710 --> 00:45:43,520
maybe we can not pay taxes for a year

1297
00:45:49,030 --> 00:45:46,720
and they could just take income from

1298
00:45:50,309 --> 00:45:49,040
i think it depends a lot on what else is

1299
00:45:51,829 --> 00:45:50,319
going on in the world i mean there are

1300
00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:51,839
so many

1301
00:45:56,630 --> 00:45:54,000
horror you know horrific and demanding

1302
00:45:58,630 --> 00:45:56,640
issues on the on their plates right now

1303
00:45:59,430 --> 00:45:58,640
it's probably hard to justify ufos as

1304
00:46:01,190 --> 00:45:59,440
being

1305
00:46:03,430 --> 00:46:01,200
important enough

1306
00:46:06,069 --> 00:46:03,440
at this point to take up that kind of

1307
00:46:08,630 --> 00:46:06,079
time it depends right because if they

1308
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:08,640
really believe in it like that's a hard

1309
00:46:13,430 --> 00:46:10,800
thing to say things are more important i

1310
00:46:14,790 --> 00:46:13,440
know i feel that way yeah that's tough

1311
00:46:16,630 --> 00:46:14,800
but they're they're trying to do their

1312
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:16,640
jobs and they've got their constituents

1313
00:46:20,550 --> 00:46:18,079
and their all the issues they have to

1314
00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:20,560
deal with and it's just you know

1315
00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:22,000
sounds fun

1316
00:46:26,630 --> 00:46:24,400
yeah so we'll see i think it'll be an

1317
00:46:27,990 --> 00:46:26,640
interesting next few years a lot of good

1318
00:46:29,910 --> 00:46:28,000
things are going to happen i'm pretty

1319
00:46:32,550 --> 00:46:29,920
convinced of that and whether hearings

1320
00:46:33,750 --> 00:46:32,560
are among them i really don't know

1321
00:46:38,630 --> 00:46:33,760
yeah we'll see

1322
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:38,640
maybe we'll um one more question along

1323
00:46:42,470 --> 00:46:40,480
the lines of uh

1324
00:46:43,910 --> 00:46:42,480
of what we're talking about right now

1325
00:46:45,829 --> 00:46:43,920
i've got a couple of groovier

1326
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:45,839
consciousness related questions that i'm

1327
00:46:48,630 --> 00:46:47,839
holding in my back pocket here

1328
00:46:50,790 --> 00:46:48,640
okay

1329
00:46:53,430 --> 00:46:50,800
as as many people know and as we touched

1330
00:46:55,109 --> 00:46:53,440
on um earlier you've written this

1331
00:46:57,430 --> 00:46:55,119
groundbreaking series of articles in new

1332
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:57,440
york times that many people myself

1333
00:47:00,710 --> 00:46:59,040
included point to as kind of the

1334
00:47:02,470 --> 00:47:00,720
beginning stages

1335
00:47:04,710 --> 00:47:02,480
of what's happening now this enormous

1336
00:47:06,630 --> 00:47:04,720
amount of momentum that is built in the

1337
00:47:08,550 --> 00:47:06,640
last four years in acclimating the

1338
00:47:11,990 --> 00:47:08,560
public to the realities of anomalous

1339
00:47:13,990 --> 00:47:12,000
craft and anomalous phenomena in general

1340
00:47:15,589 --> 00:47:14,000
ralph has been a steady partner with you

1341
00:47:17,750 --> 00:47:15,599
in this work and in the first two

1342
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:17,760
articles you also benefited from having

1343
00:47:22,309 --> 00:47:19,920
helene cooper on board a full-time

1344
00:47:24,069 --> 00:47:22,319
pentagon correspondent for the times

1345
00:47:26,069 --> 00:47:24,079
your third article in that series is

1346
00:47:28,549 --> 00:47:26,079
popularly remembered as the article to

1347
00:47:31,430 --> 00:47:28,559
address the possibilities of physical

1348
00:47:33,750 --> 00:47:31,440
evidence as in what could remain from

1349
00:47:35,430 --> 00:47:33,760
crash retrievals for example from what

1350
00:47:37,670 --> 00:47:35,440
you've said in the past that article was

1351
00:47:39,430 --> 00:47:37,680
more challenging to get published

1352
00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:39,440
was there anything specific that you'd

1353
00:47:43,190 --> 00:47:41,520
researched for that article or had been

1354
00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:43,200
in play in earlier drafts that you

1355
00:47:47,430 --> 00:47:45,520
really wish had made it in

1356
00:47:49,270 --> 00:47:47,440
and do you foresee revisiting some of

1357
00:47:50,829 --> 00:47:49,280
that subject matter in the future that

1358
00:47:53,030 --> 00:47:50,839
of physical

1359
00:47:56,069 --> 00:47:53,040
materials definitely i would like to

1360
00:47:57,990 --> 00:47:56,079
revisit it if i can get a ralph and i

1361
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:58,000
can get more

1362
00:48:02,470 --> 00:47:59,760
you know data to bring forward i mean

1363
00:48:05,109 --> 00:48:02,480
the problem with covering that topic

1364
00:48:06,710 --> 00:48:05,119
is that if there are materials which i

1365
00:48:08,549 --> 00:48:06,720
believe there are they're all in

1366
00:48:11,109 --> 00:48:08,559
classified programs

1367
00:48:12,630 --> 00:48:11,119
and so you just can't get

1368
00:48:14,309 --> 00:48:12,640
you know the kind of

1369
00:48:16,710 --> 00:48:14,319
information that we had in our first two

1370
00:48:18,069 --> 00:48:16,720
stories it was more about what somebody

1371
00:48:21,589 --> 00:48:18,079
says

1372
00:48:23,589 --> 00:48:21,599
but you know there's no documentation or

1373
00:48:25,270 --> 00:48:23,599
you know anything to really back it up

1374
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:25,280
um

1375
00:48:30,390 --> 00:48:29,119
you know you just have trusted sources

1376
00:48:32,230 --> 00:48:30,400
and if we can get them on the record

1377
00:48:33,910 --> 00:48:32,240
which we did in that story and we were

1378
00:48:36,150 --> 00:48:33,920
talking about the fact that members of

1379
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:36,160
congress have been briefed on that topic

1380
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:38,160
well if they're being briefed on it it

1381
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:41,040
it's it's a real thing right

1382
00:48:44,870 --> 00:48:43,440
i mean you know but i know so yeah

1383
00:48:46,950 --> 00:48:44,880
you know and there were some things i

1384
00:48:49,270 --> 00:48:46,960
mean it was difficult just because it's

1385
00:48:50,790 --> 00:48:49,280
so controversial and because it was so

1386
00:48:51,990 --> 00:48:50,800
hard to

1387
00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:52,000
back up

1388
00:48:55,990 --> 00:48:53,760
back it up and when you're the more

1389
00:48:57,750 --> 00:48:56,000
controversial the topic the more you're

1390
00:49:00,470 --> 00:48:57,760
required

1391
00:49:02,630 --> 00:49:00,480
you know to back it up to have

1392
00:49:04,390 --> 00:49:02,640
corroboration documentation all the

1393
00:49:06,630 --> 00:49:04,400
things were very hard to get for that

1394
00:49:09,910 --> 00:49:06,640
something that sensitive and when it's a

1395
00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:09,920
classified topic like that

1396
00:49:13,750 --> 00:49:11,520
people will talk off the record but

1397
00:49:16,069 --> 00:49:13,760
they're not gonna it's very hard to get

1398
00:49:18,230 --> 00:49:16,079
sources on the record so that was part

1399
00:49:21,270 --> 00:49:18,240
that was really what the difficulty was

1400
00:49:23,430 --> 00:49:21,280
um but i think what we did have was

1401
00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:23,440
really important in that story

1402
00:49:27,990 --> 00:49:26,240
and i yeah and someday i definitely want

1403
00:49:30,309 --> 00:49:28,000
to revisit it it just depends on whether

1404
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:30,319
i can get my hands on anything else you

1405
00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:31,440
know

1406
00:49:37,030 --> 00:49:33,920
but that's also something that may come

1407
00:49:38,950 --> 00:49:37,040
out more because in the legislation

1408
00:49:40,870 --> 00:49:38,960
right you know they've she's requested

1409
00:49:42,710 --> 00:49:40,880
that kind of thing be part of reports

1410
00:49:45,430 --> 00:49:42,720
that are supposed to be published it may

1411
00:49:47,829 --> 00:49:45,440
remain in the classified reports

1412
00:49:49,430 --> 00:49:47,839
but you know i i i'm holding out a lot

1413
00:49:51,270 --> 00:49:49,440
of hope that a lot of things are going

1414
00:49:52,870 --> 00:49:51,280
to come out in the next few years that

1415
00:49:54,790 --> 00:49:52,880
haven't already and maybe that'll be one

1416
00:49:57,030 --> 00:49:54,800
of them and there are also people

1417
00:49:59,750 --> 00:49:57,040
outside of the government agencies that

1418
00:50:02,230 --> 00:49:59,760
are studying like like jacques valle and

1419
00:50:04,150 --> 00:50:02,240
gary nolan from stanford

1420
00:50:05,910 --> 00:50:04,160
are doing a lot of work on studying

1421
00:50:07,430 --> 00:50:05,920
anomalous materials and they're trying

1422
00:50:09,750 --> 00:50:07,440
to publish some papers and they're going

1423
00:50:10,790 --> 00:50:09,760
to get momentum and and

1424
00:50:12,470 --> 00:50:10,800
i think they're going to come up with

1425
00:50:15,190 --> 00:50:12,480
some interesting information

1426
00:50:17,349 --> 00:50:15,200
as well so yeah i hope so and you doing

1427
00:50:18,790 --> 00:50:17,359
the cnn thing is fantastic

1428
00:50:21,430 --> 00:50:18,800
and i hope you know that starts

1429
00:50:23,030 --> 00:50:21,440
something off with uh major media too

1430
00:50:26,390 --> 00:50:23,040
because you know when they get involved

1431
00:50:27,670 --> 00:50:26,400
with with the resources they have and

1432
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:27,680
you know

1433
00:50:32,069 --> 00:50:29,760
i i think we would get a lot more

1434
00:50:34,549 --> 00:50:32,079
information too you know

1435
00:50:36,790 --> 00:50:34,559
so yeah you mean could be more media but

1436
00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:36,800
more media yeah which which certainly it

1437
00:50:41,430 --> 00:50:38,880
comes in waves with the media

1438
00:50:43,750 --> 00:50:41,440
i mean right before the june 25th the

1439
00:50:46,309 --> 00:50:43,760
june 2021 report

1440
00:50:50,069 --> 00:50:46,319
do you remember the unbelievable media

1441
00:50:52,069 --> 00:50:50,079
frenzy that took place for the like true

1442
00:50:53,670 --> 00:50:52,079
a couple of months prior to that it was

1443
00:50:55,109 --> 00:50:53,680
just i'd never seen anything like it in

1444
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:55,119
all the years i've been working on this

1445
00:50:59,829 --> 00:50:57,359
topic it was just unbelievable and then

1446
00:51:01,510 --> 00:50:59,839
it gets quiet you know and then

1447
00:51:03,109 --> 00:51:01,520
something else comes along and it

1448
00:51:04,549 --> 00:51:03,119
stimulates everybody and they all want

1449
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:04,559
to jump in again so right now we're in

1450
00:51:07,829 --> 00:51:06,000
kind of a quiet period but that doesn't

1451
00:51:09,349 --> 00:51:07,839
mean there's not a lot going on because

1452
00:51:10,230 --> 00:51:09,359
i know that there is

1453
00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:10,240
you know

1454
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:12,079
i hear usually that's when the most is

1455
00:51:16,230 --> 00:51:14,000
going on

1456
00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:16,240
right quiet before the storm right and

1457
00:51:20,470 --> 00:51:18,480
we'll have another storm sooner or later

1458
00:51:21,349 --> 00:51:20,480
yeah so

1459
00:51:22,790 --> 00:51:21,359
yeah

1460
00:51:24,390 --> 00:51:22,800
one of the things that i really

1461
00:51:27,910 --> 00:51:24,400
appreciated about

1462
00:51:28,870 --> 00:51:27,920
that kind of wave of of media publicity

1463
00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:28,880
um

1464
00:51:34,549 --> 00:51:30,960
going leading up to the task force

1465
00:51:37,750 --> 00:51:34,559
report was that amazing um

1466
00:51:40,950 --> 00:51:37,760
uh new yorker story that you helped uh

1467
00:51:42,150 --> 00:51:40,960
gideon uh that you contributed to very

1468
00:51:44,309 --> 00:51:42,160
very heavily

1469
00:51:46,549 --> 00:51:44,319
um and what what i think i most

1470
00:51:49,030 --> 00:51:46,559
appreciated about that was not just that

1471
00:51:50,870 --> 00:51:49,040
it was kind of opening things up to

1472
00:51:51,990 --> 00:51:50,880
a slightly different audience than was

1473
00:51:55,190 --> 00:51:52,000
used to

1474
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:55,200
um these these types of articles which

1475
00:52:00,549 --> 00:51:58,079
is real amazing outreach work you know

1476
00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:00,559
and new yorkers kind of snooty i mean i

1477
00:52:06,309 --> 00:52:04,160
dated a girl once who read that really

1478
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:06,319
it's very it's very kind of high brow

1479
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:08,160
and intellectual you know

1480
00:52:12,390 --> 00:52:10,559
new york city intellectuals read it

1481
00:52:13,670 --> 00:52:12,400
but the articles are really well written

1482
00:52:15,990 --> 00:52:13,680
i mean they have a they have a high

1483
00:52:16,870 --> 00:52:16,000
standard for writing in that publication

1484
00:52:18,870 --> 00:52:16,880
yeah

1485
00:52:20,950 --> 00:52:18,880
and one of the things that i i that i

1486
00:52:22,870 --> 00:52:20,960
appreciated most about that article is

1487
00:52:25,910 --> 00:52:22,880
that that it was

1488
00:52:28,710 --> 00:52:25,920
that what you were contributing there it

1489
00:52:31,349 --> 00:52:28,720
seemed there was a lot of historical

1490
00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:31,359
context that had been kind of left out

1491
00:52:39,589 --> 00:52:32,640
of

1492
00:52:41,589 --> 00:52:39,599
ufology goes back before the nimitz etc

1493
00:52:44,390 --> 00:52:41,599
etc that the history goes back before

1494
00:52:46,790 --> 00:52:44,400
that and i think that that article did a

1495
00:52:49,030 --> 00:52:46,800
lot in terms of i've noticed that

1496
00:52:51,910 --> 00:52:49,040
there's more journalists that seem to be

1497
00:52:55,349 --> 00:52:51,920
referencing earlier cases and going back

1498
00:52:56,069 --> 00:52:55,359
further and and i it seemed like some of

1499
00:52:56,790 --> 00:52:56,079
that

1500
00:52:59,430 --> 00:52:56,800
was

1501
00:53:01,109 --> 00:52:59,440
in relation to to referencing the very

1502
00:53:03,349 --> 00:53:01,119
specific cases that came up in that

1503
00:53:05,430 --> 00:53:03,359
article which i thought was awesome um

1504
00:53:07,030 --> 00:53:05,440
yeah you have to give credit to that to

1505
00:53:09,190 --> 00:53:07,040
gideon lewis krause who wrote the

1506
00:53:10,549 --> 00:53:09,200
article basically he just did a lot of

1507
00:53:12,150 --> 00:53:10,559
interviews with me we spent a lot of

1508
00:53:14,549 --> 00:53:12,160
time together i shared books and

1509
00:53:16,069 --> 00:53:14,559
documents and stuff with him but he

1510
00:53:18,630 --> 00:53:16,079
crafted the article he knew what

1511
00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:18,640
questions to ask so he's

1512
00:53:21,349 --> 00:53:20,559
you know i was just sort of a source for

1513
00:53:23,589 --> 00:53:21,359
him

1514
00:53:25,750 --> 00:53:23,599
i play both roles i'm both the reporter

1515
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:25,760
and the source you know but he really he

1516
00:53:28,470 --> 00:53:27,280
was really the one that recognized the

1517
00:53:30,630 --> 00:53:28,480
importance of that

1518
00:53:32,790 --> 00:53:30,640
and he worked so hard on that article he

1519
00:53:34,069 --> 00:53:32,800
really became well informed in a very

1520
00:53:34,790 --> 00:53:34,079
short time

1521
00:53:40,230 --> 00:53:34,800
yeah

1522
00:53:41,670 --> 00:53:40,240
i mean i was helping him out but he

1523
00:53:44,309 --> 00:53:41,680
he was the one that knew what was

1524
00:53:45,589 --> 00:53:44,319
important what questions to ask

1525
00:53:47,030 --> 00:53:45,599
and you know

1526
00:53:47,990 --> 00:53:47,040
the whole thing he was really his

1527
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:48,000
article

1528
00:53:51,030 --> 00:53:49,760
well for what it's worth i notice you're

1529
00:53:52,870 --> 00:53:51,040
the type to always give credit to

1530
00:53:54,790 --> 00:53:52,880
somebody else so

1531
00:53:56,470 --> 00:53:54,800
well he really deserves it i'm serious

1532
00:53:59,109 --> 00:53:56,480
i'm not the i'm not the author of that

1533
00:54:00,549 --> 00:53:59,119
article i know i know i know and i

1534
00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:00,559
didn't have to deal with the new yorker

1535
00:54:04,950 --> 00:54:03,359
editors like he did so but but yeah i

1536
00:54:06,470 --> 00:54:04,960
mean i think it's great to be i think

1537
00:54:08,150 --> 00:54:06,480
it's important to bring the history i

1538
00:54:10,549 --> 00:54:08,160
think it's a reporter is it a reporter

1539
00:54:11,990 --> 00:54:10,559
on the hill that's been doing stories

1540
00:54:13,750 --> 00:54:12,000
where he talks about what's you know

1541
00:54:15,829 --> 00:54:13,760
what happened in the 50s and 60s and it

1542
00:54:17,510 --> 00:54:15,839
was really great to see that

1543
00:54:19,349 --> 00:54:17,520
because when you look when you realize

1544
00:54:21,349 --> 00:54:19,359
we have the same technology the same

1545
00:54:22,870 --> 00:54:21,359
reporting reports of technology then

1546
00:54:24,630 --> 00:54:22,880
that we have now

1547
00:54:25,829 --> 00:54:24,640
oh liberation

1548
00:54:27,670 --> 00:54:25,839
yeah just

1549
00:54:29,349 --> 00:54:27,680
yeah maybe i mean i think there was some

1550
00:54:31,990 --> 00:54:29,359
some publication like the hill that did

1551
00:54:34,150 --> 00:54:32,000
something too i don't remember yeah

1552
00:54:35,270 --> 00:54:34,160
it's just an important thread that we

1553
00:54:37,510 --> 00:54:35,280
bring that

1554
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:37,520
into the dialogue because i'm glad you

1555
00:54:41,670 --> 00:54:40,000
as you guys say it's really important

1556
00:54:43,270 --> 00:54:41,680
because we have the same reports then

1557
00:54:44,390 --> 00:54:43,280
that we have now

1558
00:54:46,150 --> 00:54:44,400
and

1559
00:54:48,390 --> 00:54:46,160
people you can't there's just no way

1560
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:48,400
that russia or chinese russia china or

1561
00:54:53,030 --> 00:54:50,240
america had that technology in the in

1562
00:54:55,829 --> 00:54:53,040
the 50s and 60s yeah it's fair enough to

1563
00:54:57,190 --> 00:54:55,839
speculate about today but not then and

1564
00:54:59,030 --> 00:54:57,200
when you look back at the reports and

1565
00:55:00,789 --> 00:54:59,040
you see how similar they are to what we

1566
00:55:03,190 --> 00:55:00,799
have now

1567
00:55:05,349 --> 00:55:03,200
you know it's really compelling

1568
00:55:08,230 --> 00:55:05,359
that's what made me realize i wasn't

1569
00:55:11,349 --> 00:55:08,240
going crazy after my experience is

1570
00:55:13,190 --> 00:55:11,359
looking at uh all those old files and i

1571
00:55:15,510 --> 00:55:13,200
wrote one similar to what you're

1572
00:55:17,349 --> 00:55:15,520
discussing on liberation times where oh

1573
00:55:19,750 --> 00:55:17,359
maybe that's the one i'm thinking of

1574
00:55:21,670 --> 00:55:19,760
and it had to do with a lot of cia

1575
00:55:23,670 --> 00:55:21,680
documents basically is where i got those

1576
00:55:26,470 --> 00:55:23,680
ones and they were talking about

1577
00:55:29,510 --> 00:55:26,480
these things buzzing around strategic um

1578
00:55:31,349 --> 00:55:29,520
you know airspace and and nuclear areas

1579
00:55:35,109 --> 00:55:31,359
and this was in like

1580
00:55:36,390 --> 00:55:35,119
51 or 52 you know the same things they

1581
00:55:37,349 --> 00:55:36,400
were aware of

1582
00:55:38,630 --> 00:55:37,359
and

1583
00:55:40,150 --> 00:55:38,640
you know it was kind of just like hey

1584
00:55:41,910 --> 00:55:40,160
come on get your act together how long

1585
00:55:43,910 --> 00:55:41,920
do you need

1586
00:55:46,390 --> 00:55:43,920
you know to address this exactly you

1587
00:55:47,829 --> 00:55:46,400
know it's really important and i'm sorry

1588
00:55:50,630 --> 00:55:47,839
i didn't remember that that was your

1589
00:55:51,349 --> 00:55:50,640
story but um because i read so many you

1590
00:55:53,910 --> 00:55:51,359
know

1591
00:55:55,829 --> 00:55:53,920
i'm glad you did it well it probably was

1592
00:55:57,190 --> 00:55:55,839
that's what you wrote about and i'm glad

1593
00:55:59,190 --> 00:55:57,200
you you know it's just important to

1594
00:56:00,230 --> 00:55:59,200
bring that kind of information out it

1595
00:56:02,789 --> 00:56:00,240
really is

1596
00:56:04,549 --> 00:56:02,799
that's all i do here

1597
00:56:06,710 --> 00:56:04,559
i think it's more i mean

1598
00:56:08,630 --> 00:56:06,720
i think people who don't know anything

1599
00:56:10,470 --> 00:56:08,640
about this subject kind of lose patience

1600
00:56:12,950 --> 00:56:10,480
if they from the 50s they think oh it

1601
00:56:14,230 --> 00:56:12,960
was so long ago yeah it doesn't i didn't

1602
00:56:16,950 --> 00:56:14,240
really know what they were doing back

1603
00:56:18,950 --> 00:56:16,960
then or whatever people tend to focus

1604
00:56:20,710 --> 00:56:18,960
more on contemporary stuff but i don't i

1605
00:56:22,470 --> 00:56:20,720
don't agree with that i think it's the

1606
00:56:24,870 --> 00:56:22,480
earlier stuff is really important and

1607
00:56:26,630 --> 00:56:24,880
really compelling yeah it's it's both

1608
00:56:28,950 --> 00:56:26,640
right like if someone's working on new

1609
00:56:31,910 --> 00:56:28,960
stuff and someone's working on old stuff

1610
00:56:33,589 --> 00:56:31,920
and you know they're both the same type

1611
00:56:35,349 --> 00:56:33,599
of story

1612
00:56:37,829 --> 00:56:35,359
you know totally come on connect the

1613
00:56:40,230 --> 00:56:37,839
dots say hello yeah totally i don't know

1614
00:56:41,910 --> 00:56:40,240
i agree really important they're really

1615
00:56:43,190 --> 00:56:41,920
good for the making the argument that

1616
00:56:45,109 --> 00:56:43,200
they're not russian or chinese or

1617
00:56:47,110 --> 00:56:45,119
american yeah

1618
00:56:49,430 --> 00:56:47,120
i mean it's kind of obvious

1619
00:56:51,109 --> 00:56:49,440
[Music]

1620
00:56:53,030 --> 00:56:51,119
yeah i've kept against the hour so if

1621
00:56:55,030 --> 00:56:53,040
you've got i know i've got i've got a

1622
00:56:59,109 --> 00:56:55,040
couple questions and i'm trying to jam

1623
00:57:03,109 --> 00:57:01,349
many researchers historically have been

1624
00:57:05,030 --> 00:57:03,119
pretty squeamish about looking into the

1625
00:57:07,190 --> 00:57:05,040
subject of consciousness or even

1626
00:57:09,349 --> 00:57:07,200
perception with regard to anomalous

1627
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:09,359
phenomena not you though

1628
00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:11,040
you're so involved in that part of the

1629
00:57:14,950 --> 00:57:12,880
conversation that recently you were a

1630
00:57:17,030 --> 00:57:14,960
judge in the now famous contest

1631
00:57:18,789 --> 00:57:17,040
organized by the bigelow institute for

1632
00:57:21,030 --> 00:57:18,799
consciousness studies how is that

1633
00:57:23,030 --> 00:57:21,040
process for you what was it like going

1634
00:57:24,950 --> 00:57:23,040
through all those essays and do you see

1635
00:57:26,789 --> 00:57:24,960
any themes and research there that holds

1636
00:57:28,390 --> 00:57:26,799
potential for the future of

1637
00:57:30,549 --> 00:57:28,400
consciousness studies and the

1638
00:57:33,030 --> 00:57:30,559
long-standing puzzle of consciousness

1639
00:57:34,470 --> 00:57:33,040
beyond the physical body

1640
00:57:36,309 --> 00:57:34,480
wow what a great question i don't know

1641
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:36,319
if your viewers know about the bigelow

1642
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:38,559
contest but just to let them know

1643
00:57:43,109 --> 00:57:41,520
briefly that robert bigelow

1644
00:57:45,030 --> 00:57:43,119
who i'm sure everybody knows who robert

1645
00:57:48,150 --> 00:57:45,040
bigelow is offered

1646
00:57:50,150 --> 00:57:48,160
huge cash prizes to people

1647
00:57:51,829 --> 00:57:50,160
who would contribute essays on answering

1648
00:57:54,069 --> 00:57:51,839
the question what is the best evidence

1649
00:57:55,430 --> 00:57:54,079
for the survival of consciousness past

1650
00:57:57,349 --> 00:57:55,440
bodily death

1651
00:58:00,470 --> 00:57:57,359
and the winner of the contest got half a

1652
00:58:01,910 --> 00:58:00,480
million dollars i mean we're not talking

1653
00:58:02,789 --> 00:58:01,920
trump change here

1654
00:58:05,349 --> 00:58:02,799
so

1655
00:58:08,069 --> 00:58:05,359
i was one of six judges and we received

1656
00:58:10,069 --> 00:58:08,079
oh we had to read over 200 about 204

1657
00:58:12,630 --> 00:58:10,079
essays that actually

1658
00:58:14,309 --> 00:58:12,640
passed all the various levels of

1659
00:58:17,190 --> 00:58:14,319
criteria but you didn't have to be an

1660
00:58:20,710 --> 00:58:17,200
academic or a phd or anything like that

1661
00:58:25,030 --> 00:58:20,720
to apply to to write an essay

1662
00:58:27,750 --> 00:58:25,040
um so the it was an amazing experience

1663
00:58:30,549 --> 00:58:27,760
absolutely phenomenal the only problem

1664
00:58:32,870 --> 00:58:30,559
for me was that i was doing cnn

1665
00:58:35,109 --> 00:58:32,880
full-time at the same time

1666
00:58:37,190 --> 00:58:35,119
i just wished i'd had more time to sort

1667
00:58:38,470 --> 00:58:37,200
of spend ruminating over the bigelow

1668
00:58:40,069 --> 00:58:38,480
essays

1669
00:58:42,630 --> 00:58:40,079
um

1670
00:58:44,309 --> 00:58:42,640
it takes a lot of time they were 25 000

1671
00:58:46,069 --> 00:58:44,319
words most of them each so that means

1672
00:58:48,789 --> 00:58:46,079
like four of them is the equivalent of

1673
00:58:50,630 --> 00:58:48,799
reading a book and we had to read 204 of

1674
00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:50,640
them so it was really really time

1675
00:58:54,309 --> 00:58:52,240
consuming but putting that sort of

1676
00:58:56,870 --> 00:58:54,319
practical details like that aside the

1677
00:58:58,630 --> 00:58:56,880
content was absolutely fascinating

1678
00:59:00,950 --> 00:58:58,640
it was just a great experience it was a

1679
00:59:03,430 --> 00:59:00,960
great experience for me to deal with and

1680
00:59:06,470 --> 00:59:03,440
work with the other five judges that i

1681
00:59:07,750 --> 00:59:06,480
felt so privileged to be working with

1682
00:59:09,750 --> 00:59:07,760
this group

1683
00:59:12,309 --> 00:59:09,760
that it made it incredibly meaningful

1684
00:59:13,670 --> 00:59:12,319
and the content of the the papers was

1685
00:59:14,950 --> 00:59:13,680
fascinating

1686
00:59:17,750 --> 00:59:14,960
um

1687
00:59:21,030 --> 00:59:17,760
i mean there was such a broad range of

1688
00:59:23,030 --> 00:59:21,040
personal experience and research and

1689
00:59:24,230 --> 00:59:23,040
a lot of thoughtfulness in terms of how

1690
00:59:27,829 --> 00:59:24,240
to connect

1691
00:59:30,230 --> 00:59:27,839
various areas of study and i mean it was

1692
00:59:32,309 --> 00:59:30,240
and that the the top i think it was 20

1693
00:59:33,750 --> 00:59:32,319
papers or something are all available on

1694
00:59:36,069 --> 00:59:33,760
that website for anybody who wants to

1695
00:59:37,990 --> 00:59:36,079
read them

1696
00:59:39,430 --> 00:59:38,000
and you you know they're i feel like

1697
00:59:41,190 --> 00:59:39,440
they make a really good case i don't

1698
00:59:42,789 --> 00:59:41,200
think it's ever something you can prove

1699
00:59:45,190 --> 00:59:42,799
i mean you can pretty much prove the

1700
00:59:46,549 --> 00:59:45,200
reality of a ufo

1701
00:59:48,150 --> 00:59:46,559
because you've got radar and all this

1702
00:59:50,069 --> 00:59:48,160
stuff you can't really prove the

1703
00:59:52,870 --> 00:59:50,079
survival of consciousness but there's

1704
00:59:54,309 --> 00:59:52,880
very dying and coming back right right i

1705
00:59:57,190 --> 00:59:54,319
mean and people will say they've done

1706
00:59:58,150 --> 00:59:57,200
that with near-death experiences so they

1707
01:00:00,309 --> 00:59:58,160
have

1708
01:00:03,430 --> 01:00:00,319
i mean and a lot of the papers we got

1709
01:00:05,829 --> 01:00:03,440
were about ndes um in fact the number

1710
01:00:07,910 --> 01:00:05,839
two winner that we selected was about

1711
01:00:10,549 --> 01:00:07,920
was pim von lummel who wrote about

1712
01:00:12,630 --> 01:00:10,559
near-death experiences and he writes so

1713
01:00:14,150 --> 01:00:12,640
beautifully and so insightfully

1714
01:00:16,150 --> 01:00:14,160
and nick cook was one of the winners

1715
01:00:19,349 --> 01:00:16,160
somebody was just typing and that's true

1716
01:00:21,829 --> 01:00:19,359
there were some incredible papers there

1717
01:00:23,589 --> 01:00:21,839
so i was i loved the experience of being

1718
01:00:25,910 --> 01:00:23,599
involved with it i felt really honored

1719
01:00:28,870 --> 01:00:25,920
to be able to

1720
01:00:31,349 --> 01:00:28,880
be on this panel and i don't really feel

1721
01:00:33,990 --> 01:00:31,359
qualified to be a judge you know do you

1722
01:00:35,910 --> 01:00:34,000
believe in life i mean

1723
01:00:37,510 --> 01:00:35,920
i think there's so much suggestive

1724
01:00:39,589 --> 01:00:37,520
evidence that it's really hard to

1725
01:00:42,150 --> 01:00:39,599
imagine that something doesn't go on

1726
01:00:44,230 --> 01:00:42,160
after the body dies at least for a while

1727
01:00:47,030 --> 01:00:44,240
yeah but you know there's so many

1728
01:00:49,109 --> 01:00:47,040
possibilities i mean i've i've been

1729
01:00:51,190 --> 01:00:49,119
involved with mediums where it's all

1730
01:00:52,950 --> 01:00:51,200
like very specific you're in this whole

1731
01:00:54,789 --> 01:00:52,960
other world it's just like ours only

1732
01:00:57,109 --> 01:00:54,799
it's not physical and all the

1733
01:00:59,109 --> 01:00:57,119
i don't know what's true you know i love

1734
01:01:01,910 --> 01:00:59,119
to think about it i love to contemplate

1735
01:01:04,069 --> 01:01:01,920
it um i love to engage with it and work

1736
01:01:05,990 --> 01:01:04,079
with it and and um

1737
01:01:08,150 --> 01:01:06,000
so i find it really really compelling

1738
01:01:10,470 --> 01:01:08,160
yeah you're talking about stories with

1739
01:01:13,670 --> 01:01:10,480
uh some people had some um

1740
01:01:16,630 --> 01:01:13,680
like uh experiences uh with ufos or

1741
01:01:18,230 --> 01:01:16,640
abductions and they saw some deceased uh

1742
01:01:20,470 --> 01:01:18,240
relatives right

1743
01:01:23,190 --> 01:01:20,480
that's that is and you know whitley

1744
01:01:25,589 --> 01:01:23,200
strieber has been studying the question

1745
01:01:27,030 --> 01:01:25,599
of how the ufo phenomenon intersects

1746
01:01:29,270 --> 01:01:27,040
with consciousness and

1747
01:01:31,030 --> 01:01:29,280
an after death phenomenon phenomena is

1748
01:01:32,549 --> 01:01:31,040
so interesting

1749
01:01:33,910 --> 01:01:32,559
and whaley street has been looking into

1750
01:01:35,829 --> 01:01:33,920
that for years and some of those

1751
01:01:38,309 --> 01:01:35,839
communion letters that he got back in

1752
01:01:39,510 --> 01:01:38,319
the late 80s where nobody knew anything

1753
01:01:41,510 --> 01:01:39,520
about

1754
01:01:43,670 --> 01:01:41,520
abduction experiences or near-death

1755
01:01:45,270 --> 01:01:43,680
experiences really then and they were

1756
01:01:47,030 --> 01:01:45,280
there were people that prescribing their

1757
01:01:48,789 --> 01:01:47,040
abduction experiences talking about

1758
01:01:50,950 --> 01:01:48,799
seeing their deceased relatives during

1759
01:01:53,030 --> 01:01:50,960
their experience which you know

1760
01:01:54,390 --> 01:01:53,040
they really took he and his wife took a

1761
01:01:56,069 --> 01:01:54,400
note of that at the time didn't know

1762
01:01:58,150 --> 01:01:56,079
what to make of it

1763
01:02:01,190 --> 01:01:58,160
and so that there's so many interesting

1764
01:02:03,270 --> 01:02:01,200
ways to look at the crossover and

1765
01:02:04,150 --> 01:02:03,280
um you know that is sort of a question

1766
01:02:06,390 --> 01:02:04,160
that's

1767
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:06,400
on the front burner right now

1768
01:02:08,789 --> 01:02:07,440
um

1769
01:02:10,390 --> 01:02:08,799
certainly for me there are people that

1770
01:02:12,470 --> 01:02:10,400
know a lot more about it than i do i

1771
01:02:14,230 --> 01:02:12,480
mean jeff [\h__\h] from rice university

1772
01:02:15,270 --> 01:02:14,240
for instance you talk about you know

1773
01:02:17,829 --> 01:02:15,280
having

1774
01:02:19,990 --> 01:02:17,839
been studying anomalous experiences he's

1775
01:02:21,829 --> 01:02:20,000
been doing it for decades and written

1776
01:02:24,470 --> 01:02:21,839
lots of books he's an absolutely amazing

1777
01:02:27,430 --> 01:02:24,480
human being and he's very you know he

1778
01:02:29,670 --> 01:02:27,440
looks at how it all fits together

1779
01:02:32,150 --> 01:02:29,680
um i mean he basically sees it all as

1780
01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:32,160
one big phenomenon and

1781
01:02:35,349 --> 01:02:33,760
i don't know i'm trying to sort it all

1782
01:02:37,910 --> 01:02:35,359
out and learning more about how it all

1783
01:02:40,950 --> 01:02:37,920
intersects but it's a big mystery my

1784
01:02:41,750 --> 01:02:40,960
experience is a complete mix of the two

1785
01:02:43,990 --> 01:02:41,760
um

1786
01:02:45,910 --> 01:02:44,000
you know seeing things a dream

1787
01:02:48,789 --> 01:02:45,920
premonition coming true in the middle of

1788
01:02:50,950 --> 01:02:48,799
seeing two different things it's um it's

1789
01:02:52,630 --> 01:02:50,960
pretty wild so i mean that was that was

1790
01:02:54,710 --> 01:02:52,640
a a rocker

1791
01:02:57,670 --> 01:02:54,720
um and that's why i'm here now but yeah

1792
01:02:59,510 --> 01:02:57,680
so that's why it's real it's real stuff

1793
01:03:01,349 --> 01:02:59,520
you know it has and it has a lot of

1794
01:03:03,029 --> 01:03:01,359
meaning and that meaning needs it needs

1795
01:03:05,349 --> 01:03:03,039
to be respected and we need to learn

1796
01:03:08,069 --> 01:03:05,359
more and investigate and it needs to be

1797
01:03:09,829 --> 01:03:08,079
studied it needs to be incorporated into

1798
01:03:11,670 --> 01:03:09,839
the way we see the world

1799
01:03:14,309 --> 01:03:11,680
you know most definitely

1800
01:03:15,510 --> 01:03:14,319
so um there's a lot more work to be done

1801
01:03:17,750 --> 01:03:15,520
there is

1802
01:03:20,150 --> 01:03:17,760
and i know that together yeah

1803
01:03:22,230 --> 01:03:20,160
absolutely i i know that we're getting

1804
01:03:23,670 --> 01:03:22,240
to the end of our time here uh along

1805
01:03:26,390 --> 01:03:23,680
those lines um

1806
01:03:28,710 --> 01:03:26,400
as as a last question for me though um

1807
01:03:31,190 --> 01:03:28,720
you know and talking about the letters

1808
01:03:33,589 --> 01:03:31,200
to whitley and speaking about

1809
01:03:34,789 --> 01:03:33,599
the the high strangeness of experiencer

1810
01:03:37,109 --> 01:03:34,799
accounts and things like that

1811
01:03:38,789 --> 01:03:37,119
ontological shock all those things uh

1812
01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:38,799
you've spoken with many experiencers

1813
01:03:42,710 --> 01:03:41,200
over the years for both your books and

1814
01:03:44,230 --> 01:03:42,720
other work you've done and i've heard

1815
01:03:46,309 --> 01:03:44,240
you mentioned the stigma that

1816
01:03:48,150 --> 01:03:46,319
experiencers often face

1817
01:03:49,829 --> 01:03:48,160
unfortunately your work has been doing a

1818
01:03:50,870 --> 01:03:49,839
lot to help out with that

1819
01:03:53,750 --> 01:03:50,880
but

1820
01:03:55,670 --> 01:03:53,760
and for the quiet experiencers out there

1821
01:03:56,630 --> 01:03:55,680
that may be watching this now or in the

1822
01:03:58,950 --> 01:03:56,640
future

1823
01:04:00,950 --> 01:03:58,960
um what advice would you give them in

1824
01:04:03,109 --> 01:04:00,960
terms of what they can do

1825
01:04:05,029 --> 01:04:03,119
both in terms of processing what they've

1826
01:04:08,789 --> 01:04:05,039
been through or even ways they could

1827
01:04:10,549 --> 01:04:08,799
help with awareness or research

1828
01:04:11,750 --> 01:04:10,559
yeah i mean you guys i mean somebody

1829
01:04:13,589 --> 01:04:11,760
like sean probably could answer that

1830
01:04:14,470 --> 01:04:13,599
question better than i can but i'll just

1831
01:04:17,190 --> 01:04:14,480
tell you

1832
01:04:19,750 --> 01:04:17,200
from what little i know i think that

1833
01:04:22,390 --> 01:04:19,760
finding other experiencers and having

1834
01:04:25,190 --> 01:04:22,400
like a community of experiencers

1835
01:04:27,589 --> 01:04:25,200
is really important for people

1836
01:04:30,390 --> 01:04:27,599
um so that they feel supported and they

1837
01:04:32,390 --> 01:04:30,400
feel understood by you know

1838
01:04:34,549 --> 01:04:32,400
others um

1839
01:04:36,230 --> 01:04:34,559
and then it's just a matter of speaking

1840
01:04:38,630 --> 01:04:36,240
and talking about it to the extent that

1841
01:04:40,470 --> 01:04:38,640
they're comfortable i think

1842
01:04:42,549 --> 01:04:40,480
maybe in the beginning leaving out i

1843
01:04:44,390 --> 01:04:42,559
know a lot of people do this anyway they

1844
01:04:46,710 --> 01:04:44,400
leave out the really really weird stuff

1845
01:04:48,390 --> 01:04:46,720
you know i mean i've known experiences

1846
01:04:50,230 --> 01:04:48,400
for years and then

1847
01:04:52,069 --> 01:04:50,240
years later they'll tell me some piece

1848
01:04:55,190 --> 01:04:52,079
that they didn't tell me before because

1849
01:04:56,870 --> 01:04:55,200
it you know it's like so i mean it's

1850
01:04:58,630 --> 01:04:56,880
just i i don't feel like i'm really in a

1851
01:05:00,710 --> 01:04:58,640
position to advise people that have had

1852
01:05:02,309 --> 01:05:00,720
experiences that i really ha i've never

1853
01:05:04,069 --> 01:05:02,319
had and i don't know what it would be

1854
01:05:06,470 --> 01:05:04,079
like to have those experiences but there

1855
01:05:07,910 --> 01:05:06,480
are i know there's one group that i

1856
01:05:10,150 --> 01:05:07,920
don't know if you guys are familiar with

1857
01:05:11,510 --> 01:05:10,160
the experience or group which is run by

1858
01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:11,520
students

1859
01:05:15,029 --> 01:05:12,880
you are right

1860
01:05:16,549 --> 01:05:15,039
yeah yeah yeah they're like i didn't

1861
01:05:18,309 --> 01:05:16,559
talk to you you look totally familiar

1862
01:05:32,870 --> 01:05:18,319
anyway i'm sorry i just forget names

1863
01:05:37,750 --> 01:05:36,230
i agree like i did a session there and i

1864
01:05:39,829 --> 01:05:37,760
got to talk about my experience with

1865
01:05:41,109 --> 01:05:39,839
other people and everybody's experience

1866
01:05:42,870 --> 01:05:41,119
was different

1867
01:05:44,150 --> 01:05:42,880
but it was great to get it out and share

1868
01:05:46,549 --> 01:05:44,160
that with somebody and what really

1869
01:05:49,270 --> 01:05:46,559
helped me was sharing my experience on a

1870
01:05:50,950 --> 01:05:49,280
live episode and getting that out and

1871
01:05:51,750 --> 01:05:50,960
because it's kind of like therapeutic

1872
01:05:53,670 --> 01:05:51,760
it's

1873
01:05:56,069 --> 01:05:53,680
just getting it out of my conscious

1874
01:05:58,470 --> 01:05:56,079
talking about it and realizing that life

1875
01:05:59,910 --> 01:05:58,480
goes on you're still the same person you

1876
01:06:03,670 --> 01:05:59,920
still have families you still have

1877
01:06:06,950 --> 01:06:03,680
people that love you um life will go on

1878
01:06:08,710 --> 01:06:06,960
uh just as fine as it did before

1879
01:06:10,789 --> 01:06:08,720
you know but it's up to you to take

1880
01:06:12,789 --> 01:06:10,799
those steps and you know a lot of that i

1881
01:06:15,349 --> 01:06:12,799
learned from the experiencer group and

1882
01:06:16,950 --> 01:06:15,359
and doing this show so that's so great

1883
01:06:18,390 --> 01:06:16,960
yeah i mean so you said you said exactly

1884
01:06:19,910 --> 01:06:18,400
what needs to be said because if you if

1885
01:06:21,510 --> 01:06:19,920
you're just keeping it all inside of

1886
01:06:22,630 --> 01:06:21,520
yourself all the time and never talking

1887
01:06:24,390 --> 01:06:22,640
about it

1888
01:06:26,309 --> 01:06:24,400
it's going to affect your life not in a

1889
01:06:27,829 --> 01:06:26,319
good way so i mean i don't know that

1890
01:06:29,750 --> 01:06:27,839
seems like the first step to me for

1891
01:06:32,789 --> 01:06:29,760
anyone right is to find a community like

1892
01:06:35,750 --> 01:06:32,799
that and you know like for me personally

1893
01:06:38,150 --> 01:06:35,760
like it has to be a community outside of

1894
01:06:40,470 --> 01:06:38,160
your immediate network of family or

1895
01:06:41,589 --> 01:06:40,480
friends because you know even if you

1896
01:06:44,390 --> 01:06:41,599
tell them

1897
01:06:46,710 --> 01:06:44,400
you know there's this unspoken thing

1898
01:06:49,349 --> 01:06:46,720
where it they seem like they're

1899
01:06:51,270 --> 01:06:49,359
listening and and under say they may

1900
01:06:51,990 --> 01:06:51,280
understand or believe you or whatever

1901
01:06:54,470 --> 01:06:52,000
but

1902
01:06:55,589 --> 01:06:54,480
it's just not the same it's talking to

1903
01:06:57,510 --> 01:06:55,599
somebody's

1904
01:06:59,109 --> 01:06:57,520
been through something themselves and

1905
01:07:02,150 --> 01:06:59,119
there's just a different level of

1906
01:07:03,910 --> 01:07:02,160
understanding there that eases

1907
01:07:06,789 --> 01:07:03,920
you know your anxiety about the whole

1908
01:07:10,069 --> 01:07:06,799
thing so that could make so much sense

1909
01:07:11,270 --> 01:07:10,079
so yeah you answered the question

1910
01:07:13,589 --> 01:07:11,280
oh there we go

1911
01:07:16,549 --> 01:07:13,599
oh thank you so much and shout out to

1912
01:07:18,549 --> 01:07:16,559
stuart and uh my uh my other co-founder

1913
01:07:21,029 --> 01:07:18,559
kirsten blackburn uh so you're one of

1914
01:07:22,789 --> 01:07:21,039
the co-founders of the group jay that's

1915
01:07:24,630 --> 01:07:22,799
that's right yeah yeah

1916
01:07:26,230 --> 01:07:24,640
i didn't do my homework i didn't do my

1917
01:07:28,309 --> 01:07:26,240
homework and figure that out ahead of

1918
01:07:29,430 --> 01:07:28,319
time but i knew you were associated with

1919
01:07:31,670 --> 01:07:29,440
that group

1920
01:07:32,950 --> 01:07:31,680
so yeah congratulations for for setting

1921
01:07:34,789 --> 01:07:32,960
that group up i think it's really

1922
01:07:36,150 --> 01:07:34,799
fantastic oh sure and i appreciate your

1923
01:07:38,230 --> 01:07:36,160
discretion there you know we've we've

1924
01:07:41,510 --> 01:07:38,240
got like a we've got a long-standing

1925
01:07:43,990 --> 01:07:41,520
policy of of co not outing each other uh

1926
01:07:45,990 --> 01:07:44,000
in public but i'm okay with it i'm okay

1927
01:07:47,750 --> 01:07:46,000
good that's great well thank you guys

1928
01:07:49,990 --> 01:07:47,760
very much for talking with me today

1929
01:07:52,470 --> 01:07:50,000
thank you appreciate it very much

1930
01:07:54,309 --> 01:07:52,480
it's so good to see you again and uh and

1931
01:07:56,230 --> 01:07:54,319
thank you so much for your time

1932
01:07:58,470 --> 01:07:56,240
thank you both for your time and for

1933
01:08:00,630 --> 01:07:58,480
doing what you do

1934
01:08:02,789 --> 01:08:00,640
my pleasure have a great rest of the day

1935
01:08:05,029 --> 01:08:02,799
and hopefully we'll talk soon okay

1936
01:08:08,390 --> 01:08:05,039
thanks a lot sean thanks jay bye thank

1937
01:08:10,230 --> 01:08:08,400
you so much leslie bye

1938
01:08:11,430 --> 01:08:10,240
all right that was fantastic i had a

1939
01:08:14,549 --> 01:08:11,440
great job

1940
01:08:15,589 --> 01:08:14,559
that was awesome yeah a great time oh my

1941
01:08:17,030 --> 01:08:15,599
gosh

1942
01:08:18,470 --> 01:08:17,040
but you know me

1943
01:08:20,309 --> 01:08:18,480
i'm hungry

1944
01:08:21,669 --> 01:08:20,319
you're hungry yeah yeah yeah i know how

1945
01:08:23,829 --> 01:08:21,679
it goes yeah

1946
01:08:26,470 --> 01:08:23,839
yeah there's i think

1947
01:08:28,789 --> 01:08:26,480
yeah if if if sean hasn't had a nap and

1948
01:08:30,630 --> 01:08:28,799
he and and he's hungry

1949
01:08:32,309 --> 01:08:30,640
don't mess with him

1950
01:08:34,470 --> 01:08:32,319
make sure to get out of that stream yard

1951
01:08:36,390 --> 01:08:34,480
before he gets hungry and i did get the

1952
01:08:37,910 --> 01:08:36,400
nap earlier so

1953
01:08:39,990 --> 01:08:37,920
i'm just

1954
01:08:42,149 --> 01:08:40,000
well that was amazing leslie was great

1955
01:08:44,470 --> 01:08:42,159
that was fantastic i've been looking

1956
01:08:46,229 --> 01:08:44,480
forward to that all month you know i can

1957
01:08:49,269 --> 01:08:46,239
see my calendar over there and it's got

1958
01:08:51,829 --> 01:08:49,279
these big stars and you know leslie you

1959
01:08:53,189 --> 01:08:51,839
know on the date for today let's see it

1960
01:08:54,789 --> 01:08:53,199
prove it

1961
01:08:56,789 --> 01:08:54,799
oh my gosh i don't want to go over there

1962
01:08:58,470 --> 01:08:56,799
there's like i don't believe eight books

1963
01:09:00,550 --> 01:08:58,480
and there's there's like my muppets

1964
01:09:02,390 --> 01:09:00,560
glass there's one all right it's yeah

1965
01:09:04,709 --> 01:09:02,400
i'll show it to you next time but um

1966
01:09:06,789 --> 01:09:04,719
anyway uh well have a good meal

1967
01:09:08,470 --> 01:09:06,799
everybody out in the chat um i haven't

1968
01:09:11,189 --> 01:09:08,480
really been had

1969
01:09:15,030 --> 01:09:11,199
everybody robert ethereal oral niger

1970
01:09:18,309 --> 01:09:15,040
christian uh kirsten benji jedi camper

1971
01:09:20,470 --> 01:09:18,319
jonathan oh my gosh k-42d everybody josh

1972
01:09:22,709 --> 01:09:20,480
that's here with me every day even when

1973
01:09:25,749 --> 01:09:22,719
i'm doing my solo stuff and my boring

1974
01:09:27,910 --> 01:09:25,759
document reads so i appreciate you guys

1975
01:09:30,229 --> 01:09:27,920
being here and sticking with me through

1976
01:09:33,110 --> 01:09:30,239
thick and thin and doing that um and

1977
01:09:34,870 --> 01:09:33,120
going on this journey with me um because

1978
01:09:36,229 --> 01:09:34,880
you know it's not always the easiest as

1979
01:09:38,630 --> 01:09:36,239
you guys know

1980
01:09:40,470 --> 01:09:38,640
um there's always a lot of ups and downs

1981
01:09:42,789 --> 01:09:40,480
trials and tribulations so it's your

1982
01:09:45,829 --> 01:09:42,799
support from you guys that really help

1983
01:09:47,430 --> 01:09:45,839
um you know we continue to go so i

1984
01:09:49,829 --> 01:09:47,440
appreciate it yes hit that like button

1985
01:09:51,990 --> 01:09:49,839
and subscribe if you haven't yes thanks

1986
01:09:53,910 --> 01:09:52,000
kirsten great to see water lily and

1987
01:09:56,229 --> 01:09:53,920
priscilla stone and so many other

1988
01:09:57,350 --> 01:09:56,239
wonderful people in here jedi camper

1989
01:09:59,590 --> 01:09:57,360
benji

1990
01:10:02,470 --> 01:09:59,600
uh so many folks i'm i'm i'm finally

1991
01:10:04,310 --> 01:10:02,480
looking over here at the chat and um

1992
01:10:07,030 --> 01:10:04,320
thank you all so much for for being here

1993
01:10:08,070 --> 01:10:07,040
today and the continued support love it

1994
01:10:08,790 --> 01:10:08,080
yeah um

1995
01:10:12,550 --> 01:10:08,800
well

1996
01:10:14,149 --> 01:10:12,560
out maybe i'll see you next week

1997
01:10:15,030 --> 01:10:14,159
yeah that'd be great yeah i've got a

1998
01:10:17,270 --> 01:10:15,040
couple

1999
01:10:19,270 --> 01:10:17,280
uh things in the pipeline for for

2000
01:10:21,189 --> 01:10:19,280
something like that it sounds great so

2001
01:10:26,470 --> 01:10:21,199
uh

2002
01:10:29,350 --> 01:10:26,480
um we'll take it over to

2003
01:10:31,430 --> 01:10:29,360
twitter and the text messages what's up

2004
01:10:33,430 --> 01:10:31,440
where could people follow you on twitter

2005
01:10:35,110 --> 01:10:33,440
and and stuff i didn't put it in the

2006
01:10:37,270 --> 01:10:35,120
description like an idiot

2007
01:10:40,550 --> 01:10:37,280
oh no worries at all um

2008
01:10:43,830 --> 01:10:40,560
well um they can find me both through

2009
01:10:47,510 --> 01:10:43,840
the experiencer groups twitter that's at

2010
01:10:51,590 --> 01:10:47,520
four experiencers so f o r experiencers

2011
01:10:54,470 --> 01:10:51,600
uh on twitter and also um i'm under my

2012
01:10:56,070 --> 01:10:54,480
my personal handle which is

2013
01:10:58,709 --> 01:10:56,080
j-a-y-c

2014
01:11:00,070 --> 01:10:58,719
king 78 i think or you could always just

2015
01:11:01,350 --> 01:11:00,080
look up jay christopher king and you'll

2016
01:11:04,229 --> 01:11:01,360
find me that way

2017
01:11:06,950 --> 01:11:04,239
yeah yeah absolutely you just yell the

2018
01:11:10,070 --> 01:11:06,960
name and it'll pop up on your

2019
01:11:12,229 --> 01:11:10,080
phone exactly like the horn yeah yeah

2020
01:11:15,030 --> 01:11:12,239
yeah basically i'm a recolor commercial

2021
01:11:16,070 --> 01:11:15,040
that's what i am i'm gonna go into it

2022
01:11:17,350 --> 01:11:16,080
right now

2023
01:11:19,350 --> 01:11:17,360
all right

2024
01:11:20,229 --> 01:11:19,360
see you soon yep see you soon great show

2025
01:11:23,189 --> 01:11:20,239
thanks

2026
01:11:26,790 --> 01:11:25,030
all right everybody i had a great time

2027
01:11:30,310 --> 01:11:26,800
thank you so much for everything the

2028
01:11:33,030 --> 01:11:30,320
support and we will see you

2029
01:11:44,420 --> 01:11:33,040
very soon

2030
01:11:44,430 --> 01:12:01,030
[Music]

2031
01:13:25,030 --> 01:12:02,870
so

2032
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:28,380
do